Why are cartoon comics not as popular with collectors as superhero comics are? 3 3

[adamstrange]

On 11/19/2023 at 12:04 PM, stormflora said:

Am I the only one sailing on this boat?

You are adrift on the endless sea of a lonely planet in a galaxy void of life at the outer edge of the universe.

So, yeah.

It wasn't always so.  In the earliest days of the hobby (60s/70s), characters from the syndicated strips / movies like Tarzan and Flash Gordon were as highly sought after as supers.  Barks' Duck books and ECs were up there among the most sought after comics.

Over time, greater collector demand was driven by what was actively being published for the older readers.  Marvel fanboys went back looking for earlier incarnations of Capt America, Torch, Subby etc.  DC fanboys chased Superman, Batman, Justice Society.  Anytime a GA or SA character got a reboot or inclusion in a modern story, their earlier appearances would get a bump in demand and price. 

There was no equivalent for the cartoon characters, so they were gradually eclipsed.  There is still demand for them (a complete set of Bugs appearances will cost a pretty penny, as will Barks' ducks), but competition is not as intense as it is for the supers.

There's also a view among the public that, while collecting superhero comics is nerdy, it is less nerdy than collecting cartoon characters.

Edited November 23, 2023 by adamstrange

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:07 PM, adamstrange said:

This is like talking about the best bassoon player in Poughkeepsie. 

Does he pick his feet?

[shadroch]

I think it is fairly simple.  In the Newsstand era, DC did well with mystery, suspense, and war books. Gold Key/Whitman had a funny animal niche.

The Direct Market sprung up and the first generation of comic store owners were almost all super-hero fans.  Many shops were underfunded and the owners ordered what they knew. 

[Telegan]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:56 PM, sfcityduck said:

I love that book. Jerry Robinson cover shows that the post-war GA had attempts to create more superheroes.  At the other end, Powell's 1955 Avenger for ME has a similar but even more modern look.

 

I've always liked a couple of the covers on that series and always asked myself "Is this about the time when comic book superheroes started looking like modern superheroes".  Before this, so many seemed to look like dock workers wearing winged helmets fighting crime with squigglies coming out of their fingers or acrobats with knives and guns.  I'm sure there were other modern-looking", but this is the one that clicked to where the cover made me think we had changes ages or something.  For example Human Torch, Sub-Mariner, etc. weren't drawn quite like The Avenger and didn't evoke that modern look even though they're still around.  Even Batman from that era doesn't give me that modern vibe.  I was shocked it was a comic from 1955 when I first saw it.  I would've said it was the 1960s or maybe 1970's from the way he was drawn on that cover.

[fifties]

On 11/22/2023 at 9:24 AM, adamstrange said:

 

I personally think the Atomic Age is best described as starting with the dropping of the Atomic Bomb and ending with the advent of the Code.

The Silver Age was about the re-introduction of superheros with a science-fiction twist as a way to take advantage of Sputnik/space race era The sci-fi aspects were critical to innovating a commercially successful approach within the restrictions imposed by Comics Code..

I would agree on your description of the Atomic Age start and end dates, although I've always considered my post war and early '50's crime and horror books as GA.

  I feel however that I have to clarify the beginning of the Silver Age, at least from my own perspective.  I bought a copy of Showcase #4 (October, 1956 cover date) off the news stand in the autumn of 1956 (read it, and gave it to my little brother as it was ho-hum for me).  My understanding is that that issue was the first Silver Age book, and it was a good year before the USSR launched Sputnik 1, in October of 1957. 

AFA comic books dated from March or April of 1955 to September of 1956, certainly not GA, but I wouldn't know how to classify them, maybe pre Silver Age?

[Cat-Man_America]

On 11/22/2023 at 9:08 AM, Bookery said:

I watched the TV Superman in the mid-60s on re-runs, but even as a kid by that point it seemed pretty hokey.  It was certainly never a substitute for the Legion of Super-Heroes flying around the galaxy, or the fascination I had at the time with the quirkier heroes like Metal Men, Metamorpho, Sea Devils (or even the Fat Fury!).  I watched "Batman" for laughs, but never confused it with the "real" (New Direction) Batman in the comics.  Horror is an interesting comic genre.  I really believe, were it not for the Code, horror would have become co-dominant with heroes in the '60s, as again it's a genre that TV wasn't allowed to do in anything other than very tame versions (compare "Twilight Zone" with the Hammer movies for example, or even with what was developing in the b&w magazines exempt from the code).

Just now getting back to this thread:

For Superman the B&W first season is best, with 26 episodes filmed (the second also had 26, with Noel Neill replacing Coates to reprise the role of Lois she had in the earlier Columbia serials). The first season was very edgy and gritty in a pulp kinda way with Phyllis Coates being a much more assertive Lois.

Some folks like the campier style of the later seasons. The last four seasons ...only 13 episode each... were filmed in color, but there's too many wink/grin episodes with a few good ones mixed in. The problem with the series is that the plots after the second B&W season (also 26 episodes) often devolved into simple cookie-cutter resolutions that would only please a very young demographic.

As for other comic based live action, I never cared for the campy Batman TV series in the mid-60's and could barely handle the spin-off Green Hornet, although appreciated Bruce Lee as a very formidable Kato.  British Hammer films were often quite good, but some of those are hit and miss as well.

Absolutely agree that only comics could pull off some of the wilder characters in the 60's. And I think comics would've done just fine without the CCA meddling to claw back some of excesses if given more time and the opportunity. The problem was too much government attention focused on what influenced young minds during a period of cold war paranoia. The conditions were just right to produce a perfect storm of repression.

 

[Bookery]

Of course, the debate about comic book "ages" will eventually be moot.  I suspect in 20 years or so, the comics fans of that period will simply break all of comic history into just two ages... the "paper age" and the "digital age".

 

[kidding... but only a little]

[stormflora]

On 11/23/2023 at 8:39 AM, Bookery said:

Of course, the debate about comic book "ages" will eventually be moot.  I suspect in 20 years or so, the comics fans of that period will simply break all of comic history into just two ages... the "paper age" and the "digital age".

 

[kidding... but only a little]

Frankly, I feel like the "Modern Age" should already be broken up and split into periods like 1985-2000, 2000-2010, 2010+. There have been so many trend changes over the past 40 years, coinciding with the technological era.

[Cat-Man_America]

On 11/23/2023 at 7:39 AM, Bookery said:

Of course, the debate about comic book "ages" will eventually be moot.  I suspect in 20 years or so, the comics fans of that period will simply break all of comic history into just two ages... the "paper age" and the "digital age".

 

[kidding... but only a little]

WARNING: Bodacious philosophical nonsense follows (no kiddin')... 

There's something to the idea of comic book ages being moot, but this would probably manifest as "The Tangible Age" verses "The Intangible Age" and collectors require the tangible in order to thrive and multiply! Memories can be relished, but they're fleeting, momentary things without evidence of persistent longing, pursuit, engagement, conquest and pride of achievement.

The digital age ends in "Dōmo arigatō, Mr. Roboto" analogous to Styx after Dennis DeYoung was canned.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Cat-Man_America
Ale and edits!

[FoggyNelson]

As just a regular middle age comic book collector, the term Atomic Age does not even register,  I go from GA to SA

[adamstrange]

On 11/22/2023 at 8:48 PM, davet75 said:

Thanks to @adamstrange and @sfcityduck for this thoughtful and insightful discussion!  Your comments have added significant depth and detail to my understanding of comic genres and ages that I collect.  Both of you have valid points and I will be mentally logging much of this information as I enjoy our hobby.  All this without even a single moderator warning.  Way to keep it classy! 

And we do all this for a nominal fee of only $5000, payable in four easy installments. 

You'll receive your first bill in about a week.

Edited November 23, 2023 by adamstrange

[MrBedrock]

On 11/22/2023 at 5:07 PM, adamstrange said:

This is like talking about the best bassoon player in Poughkeepsie. 

That guy RAWKS!!! 

[adamstrange]

On 11/23/2023 at 5:55 PM, MrBedrock said:

On 11/22/2023 at 6:07 PM, adamstrange said:

This is like talking about the best bassoon player in Poughkeepsie. 

That guy RAWKS!!! 

If it's the Andante and Hungarian Rondeau by Weber, it certainly do.

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by adamstrange

[MrBedrock]

On 11/23/2023 at 5:20 PM, adamstrange said:

If it's the Andante and Hungarian Rondeau by Weber, it certainly do.

 

That's the one! He kicks bass - oon.

[buttock]

On 11/22/2023 at 5:30 PM, adamstrange said:

My super-duper high level summary of comics.

Platinum Age (1900? - 1932) 

• comic books (not magazines) of syndicated strip reprints. 

Golden Age (1933 - 1945 Aug)

• Beginning of the newsstand comic with original material
• Creation of the superhero
• Widespread, commercially successful medium based on superhero genre, which were often very involved in WWII stories

Atomic Age (1945 Sep - 1955 Mar)

• Decline of the superhero
• Flowering of comics in every genre with stories/art targeting the same segments of the population as books/movies leading to comics greatest penetration
• Excess of gore/impropriety/immodesty leading to comics blamed for juvenile delinquency, leading to Comics Code, which, along with rise of TV, imploded the market

Silver Age

• That's a different forum... and they have their own arguments about when it started!

Thoughts I recently posted about ages in another thread. 
 

A few thoughts on 'ages'.  

1.  Ages don't necessarily start and stop consecutively.  i.e. it's not the case that the GA stops on 12/31 and SA starts on 1/1.  I think there are a few cases where the start is obvious (Action 1, Showcase 4), but more where an age evolved slowly, both beginning and end.  So to try to define them with an absolute date or issue is impossible.  

2.  Ages don't apply across the board for publishers, titles, or characters.  Showcase 4 in 1956 is obviously silver age, but Batman from the same month still feels like the doofy 50s Batman rather than the one that changed in 1964.  You can say that the GA ended with WW2, but I think the later All Stars, Flash, Superman, Batman, etc., still feel very GA.  Timely and Nedor, on the other hand had clear changes as the war ended since their covers were almost exclusively war-related.  So a 1947 DC might seem very GA, but a 1947 Timely doesn't.  Similarly the SA is very different for DC vs. Marvel.  The Silver Age begins with Showcase 4 in 1956, but for Marvel it doesn't really start until FF 1 in 1961.  Therefore a 1957 Marvel (which would be Atlas at the time) isn't viewed as SA, while a 1957 DC might be SA.  Further, Showcase 4, while being clearly the start of the SA, doesn't mean that all DCs after Showcase 4 are SA.  Is All Star Western 89 not SA, while 91 is SA?  No, it took some time for the whole comic book field to evolve into the SA.    

3. The definitions of an 'age' aren't consistent.  GA and SA conventionally refer to superhero comics.  The Golden Age started with Action 1 and the Silver Age started with Showcase 4.  Those terms are used broadly in society, but there aren't societal equivalents for Bronze, Copper, etc.  Those terms then followed to refer more to eras than actual events, which is why there is so much debate over when the BA started.  There isn't a singular book like Action 1 or Showcase 4 that defined the change, nor was there a tapering out of the preceding era to make such a singular book stand out.  In this case it's more that things shifted over time with things like GL 76, the Spidey drug books, etc., that were reflective of a societal shift rather than an event in the history of comic publishing.  So GA and SA refer to one type of change, while BA refers to another and CA yet another.  Then throw in things like "atomic era", "pre-code", "pre-hero Marvel", etc., and things get really confusing because you're referring to different framing points in different genres, publishers, titles, and characters (e.g. nobody talks about pre-code Disney).  

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

I couldn't give a rat's arse what the ages are called personally.

I gravitate always toward the GA, as it is generally accepted today, however my field of collecting is now so narrow...PCH from 1950-55 that is really all I care about.

I love that timespan with a passion, particularly 1953 as a pivotal year, so that if they call it 'The Purple age with Orange spots' in the future, I'm ok with that.  

Doesn't matter, I'll always love that half a decade in the history of comic books. 

[Cat-Man_America]

On 11/23/2023 at 2:45 PM, FoggyNelson said:

As just a regular middle age comic book collector, the term Atomic Age does not even register,  I go from GA to SA

Are you claiming you may own unlicensed nuclear comics!? 

You need to register those Atomic Age books immediately! 

On 11/23/2023 at 10:19 PM, buttock said:

Thoughts I recently posted about ages in another thread. 
 

 

A few thoughts on 'ages'.  

1.  Ages don't necessarily start and stop consecutively.  i.e. it's not the case that the GA stops on 12/31 and SA starts on 1/1.  I think there are a few cases where the start is obvious (Action 1, Showcase 4), but more where an age evolved slowly, both beginning and end.  So to try to define them with an absolute date or issue is impossible.  

2.  Ages don't apply across the board for publishers, titles, or characters.  Showcase 4 in 1956 is obviously silver age, but Batman from the same month still feels like the doofy 50s Batman rather than the one that changed in 1964.  You can say that the GA ended with WW2, but I think the later All Stars, Flash, Superman, Batman, etc., still feel very GA.  Timely and Nedor, on the other hand had clear changes as the war ended since their covers were almost exclusively war-related.  So a 1947 DC might seem very GA, but a 1947 Timely doesn't.  Similarly the SA is very different for DC vs. Marvel.  The Silver Age begins with Showcase 4 in 1956, but for Marvel it doesn't really start until FF 1 in 1961.  Therefore a 1957 Marvel (which would be Atlas at the time) isn't viewed as SA, while a 1957 DC might be SA.  Further, Showcase 4, while being clearly the start of the SA, doesn't mean that all DCs after Showcase 4 are SA.  Is All Star Western 89 not SA, while 91 is SA?  No, it took some time for the whole comic book field to evolve into the SA.    

3. The definitions of an 'age' aren't consistent.  GA and SA conventionally refer to superhero comics.  The Golden Age started with Action 1 and the Silver Age started with Showcase 4.  Those terms are used broadly in society, but there aren't societal equivalents for Bronze, Copper, etc.  Those terms then followed to refer more to eras than actual events, which is why there is so much debate over when the BA started.  There isn't a singular book like Action 1 or Showcase 4 that defined the change, nor was there a tapering out of the preceding era to make such a singular book stand out.  In this case it's more that things shifted over time with things like GL 76, the Spidey drug books, etc., that were reflective of a societal shift rather than an event in the history of comic publishing.  So GA and SA refer to one type of change, while BA refers to another and CA yet another.  Then throw in things like "atomic era", "pre-code", "pre-hero Marvel", etc., and things get really confusing because you're referring to different framing points in different genres, publishers, titles, and characters (e.g. nobody talks about pre-code Disney).  

This makes entirely too much sense. My BS detector's needle didn't move one bit. Maybe I need to check the batteries! 

On 11/23/2023 at 10:46 PM, Paul (GG) © ® ™⚽️💙 said:

I couldn't give a rat's arse what the ages are called personally.

I gravitate always toward the GA, as it is generally accepted today, however my field of collecting is now so narrow...PCH from 1950-55 that is really all I care about.

I love that timespan with a passion, particularly 1953 as a pivotal year, so that if they call it 'The Purple age with Orange spots' in the future, I'm ok with that.  

Doesn't matter, I'll always love that half a decade in the history of comic books. 

Airboy stopped transporting cheese in 1948 because of this... 

BTW, hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving! 

 

 

[Bronty]

Decades and dates really do make the most sense.     There's so much change even within those ages that understanding them fully requires getting back to dates anyways.    Things changed a lot from year to year within the specific significant movements in comics.   1962 SA marvels aren't like 1966 SA marvels, and 1952 Barks ducks are quite different than 1959 Barks ducks.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Bronty

[fifties]

As I had posted previously, I consider GA to be the period 1938-1955, and SA to be 1956 and up (IDK when the next age began).

If you look at two giants on the net, Heritage and eBay, both refer to the same time period for Golden Age.  I think that pretty well standardizes it, in broad terms.

[adamstrange]

On 11/24/2023 at 6:39 PM, fifties said:

If you look at two giants on the net, Heritage and eBay, both refer to the same time period for Golden Age.  I think that pretty well standardizes it, in broad terms.

The bidders for GA and Atomic Age heavily overlap, so it's simpler and easier for dealers and auction houses to have just the two categories.

When I started to collect Atomic Age back in the 90s, I was very lonely.  There were GA collectors and SA collectors and each of these sometimes collected Atomic Age, but I wasn't aware of anyone seriously focused on all things Atomic Age.