This place used to be so lively...what happened? 9 9

[Buzzetta]

Lot of selling action on Facebook in dedicated groups tends to draw people and these groups have been pretty active.   People will drift off to go where the action is.   There was a call for me at one point to list vintage toys here.  I did, and crickets.  I actually raised the prices and put them in some of these groups and they were gobbled up.   So...   Now, I can only imagine what others do with their stuff.  Actually, I do know, because I have run into a few of you in these very groups. 

 

     

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Buzzetta

[Gaard]

@kav could be irritating at times (as I'm pretty sure most of us are), but he made me laugh way more often.

*although I hated that Kang carp

[stormflora]

On 11/25/2023 at 1:02 PM, VintageComics said:

FedEx ground is so cheap (or at least used to be). Nobody uses it.

With third-party logistics, they tend to set minimum costs, and customs and commission fees tend to bite you in the bum. The Canadian government often waives customs fees for USPS-originated parcels below a certain value, whereas with FedEx/UPS/etc., you front that cost no matter what. I don't know why, but it could be because they precharge you instead of asking for what's actually charged of them. (Probably one of their ways of making money in the middle.)

I'd rather go with USPS than FedEx unless the shipping cost is fully covered by the seller.

On 11/25/2023 at 1:21 PM, Buzzetta said:

Lot of selling action on Facebook in dedicated groups tends to draw people and these groups have been pretty active.   People will drift off to go where the action is. 

 

     

 

 

Any of those have a sizable Canadian population?

Edited November 25, 2023 by stormflora

[Buzzetta]

On 11/25/2023 at 1:23 PM, stormflora said:

With third-party logistics, they tend to set minimum costs, and customs and commission fees tend to bite you in the bum.

I'd rather go with USPS than FedEx unless the shipping cost is fully covered by the seller.

Any of those have a sizable Canadian population?

They do not post demographics but they do have non-US located buyers.  I have shipped toys both north and south of the US border as well as Europe.

Most groups mandate PP Goods and Services. 

Most groups mandate coined images in a group shot and individually.

And then I have my own rules. I only deal with people that use real names, they must confirm their address, and I do not under any circumstances even at the risk of cancelling a deal, ship to an address other than the one printed out on the PayPal label.   

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Buzzetta

[VintageComics]

On 11/25/2023 at 1:05 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I left here about 6 months after @kav arrived back in 2015 and he put a crazy amount of effort into being part of the community. I don't know the inner workings of why he's gone, but it's a bummer to lose someone who tried to be part of the whole by participating.

I don't want to speak for Kav, but I've always defended Kav even if we disagree with each other at times, so I'm just going by my observations and defending him again. 

Like me, Kav is a voluminous poster. It irritates some people. Just look at the "meathead" comment on the previous page. That sort of shizzle SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED. 

Who wants to post here when stuff like that is said?

And so, some people get piled on all the time (adamantium was one of them as well, IIRC). Kav, like me, from time to time would get piled on. Some people just didn't want to read posts, some people disagree with the ideas being discussed, but no matter what it was, it's on the individual READING to decide whether to ignore and walk away or engage. 

When moderation started to crack down on the open abuse, the abuse went underground and people started using the "notify moderator" feature. So over-notification became the new weapon and Kav started getting locked out of specific threads the way I was locked out of the Water Cooler. 

Now I will fully admit I pushed too hard against "forbidden topics" for a while, but I genuinely felt I was treated unfairly while those topics were allowed, so I was retaliating a bit and deserved to get stricken for my reltaliation. 

The root cause is the same, though. People can't ignore what they don't like. That is the reality of what happened and I don't think anyone can disagree with this. 

Diversity and inclusion is really just a grand illusion. 

And I'm going to write a song around that, so nobody else steal it! Called it, stamped it, no erasies!  

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 11/25/2023 at 1:11 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

His need to respond to every single post got very tiresome.

So, hit the ignore feature, dork.

Next time I see you I'm going to smack you in the back of the head and teach you how to ignore it. Then Kav's posts won't bother you as much. 

ps. Me and Beyonder have known each other personally for over 20 years. Relax, everyone. 

[Galen130]

What is everyone talking about?  Why was I dragged into this @grendelbo?  Knock it off!!!

[stock_rotation]

On 11/25/2023 at 1:11 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

His need to respond to every single post got very tiresome.

Nonsense! Who among us did not delight in Kav & Oakman adding 4-5 pages of complete garbage insightful commentary to every single thread, no matter the subject!

Gresham's Law, baby! It's not just for economics anymore!

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 11/25/2023 at 1:30 PM, VintageComics said:

So, hit the ignore feature, dork.

Next time I see you I'm going to smack you in the back of the head and teach you how to ignore it. Then Kav's posts won't bother you as much. 

ps. Me and Beyonder have known each other personally for over 20 years. Relax, everyone. 

I don’t use the ignore function.  I don’t use the notify moderator button either. 
 

I was happy when Kav got his own sandbox to post in.

[1950's war comics]

it's been a ghost town around here without kav's great posts ... kav knew a lot about comics and comic book art !

i am glad Vintage has picked up some of the slack in trying to make these boards great again

[COI]

*My opinion*, as someone who has been here from year one, is that it's a combination of everything already mentioned as well as a shift in moderation that happened sometime around 2012-2013 or so. As groups get bigger, you get what I would refer to as 'social entropy', which occurs because bigger means more complex, and complexity leads to clashes in terms of personalities, temperaments, and expectations. If you're trying to moderate a growing group, you either let the chips fall where they may and risk alienating some newer people, or you try to appease everyone, which requires a "flattening" of the content to level the field and grind down some of the sharper edges. In the process of flattening, you may get rid of a few bad seeds, but you're also making things a lot less interesting and fun, as well as alienating the long time members who don't like change or see the need for it. The mods here at the time opted for the latter option, and it didn't work. There are no perfectly safe spaces, and you can't create camaraderie with a set of rules and heavy-handed enforcement.

I think Mike's doing a good job with moderation now, but the 'great flattening' combined with the changes in technology and social media engagement over the subsequent years, means this place is probably never going to be what it was 15 years ago. Nothing lasts forever, I guess. 

[goldust40]

On 11/25/2023 at 6:11 PM, VintageComics said:

On 11/25/2023 at 4:30 PM, goldust40 said:

First and still best forum for me.

I didn't mean to imply this forum isn't great. It's legacy value is absolutely priceless.

I can see why you stated that the forum seemed more lively back in the day. It was certainly more intense and the marketplace was absolutely buzzing. But over the last 6-8 years things may have declined somewhat in terms of this platform being the epicentre of the hobby / industry (not saying it was, but to me it did seem that way). As has already been pointed out, that's obviously down to migration to Insty, FB and elsewhere, or simply collector fatigue, life getting in the way, etc.

But it's mostly those other sites that people have departed to and caused this shift. I can't speak for all comic collectors and enthusiasts, but I do know it's a very hard hobby to quit. Furthermore this place has proven to be sturdy in the face of such online competition, with strict rules that may be draconian at times but do engender a convivial and genial atmosphere, which essentially is why this is still my number one website after 20 years of being here. I get so fed up with FB, X, etc. as those algorithms aren't there to bring people together. Yes there's some acrimony here but it's easy enough to bypass if you're not in the mood for it.

I was already pretty nerdy about the hobby / medium when I arrived, and considered myself a veteran even then, but I have learnt so much from boardies here who know so much more than I do about certain corners of collecting, especially in the GA section, which is still lively even if it is populated by oldies like me. Not to mention the friendships I've made, and the countless positive transactions I've done here.

I've learnt to be skeptical about the word community in recent years but this forum is one. And I agree about its legacy.

 

[Dr. Balls]

On 11/25/2023 at 8:43 AM, skypinkblu said:

I keep hearing one or two people saying things have slowed down here, that SO many people left. I think the OP mentions this often.

However, we had a thread to help DJPinkpanther's family last summer and all kinds of people who supposedly disappeared showed up.

So my guess is, life for many of us is just plain busy. I know I check the forum on my phone a lot more than I do on my computer, because I'm now used to my phone (something that has happened over the past 6-7 years...but I type 90wpm on a laptop and about 12 WPM badly on a phone.

So less posts...maybe I'm not alone...many of us aren't at desks as often, but there is still a community here, which is why a lot of us stay.

I've mentioned it that it's different here since the "olden days" most notably: the Friday Thread where someone or something somewhere gets brought to the light on a Friday and the whole place goes ape shart. Those were fun threads, filled with sarcasm, heated debate and God willing: the subject of the thread showing up to defend themselves.

Each of us has their takeaway from the community, that one is mine. Entertaining reads on a Friday where your kneejerk viewpoint can be challenged by other people lending perspective. The thread could paint the guy as a villain, and two days later, he's not so bad. I mean, some people might find that exhausting - but I have always enjoyed a conversation where you end up in a different place than you started.

Things always change, of course - but it's a shame that the Friday Threads didn't survive these past years - either due to people being busy, less "craziness" to talk about or whatever. I enjoyed those times.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Dr. Balls

[1950's war comics]

On 11/25/2023 at 11:09 AM, Dr. Balls said:

Things always change, of course - but it's a shame that the Friday Threads didn't survive these past years - either due to people being busy, less "craziness" to talk about or whatever. I enjoyed those times.

there is a 24/7 mod now , back in the day the mods took the weekend off so Friday threads were wild

[stormflora]

On 11/25/2023 at 1:40 PM, goldust40 said:

I can see why you stated that the forum seemed more lively back in the day. It was certainly more intense and the marketplace was absolutely buzzing. But over the last 6-8 years things may have declined somewhat in terms of this platform being the epicentre of the hobby / industry (not saying it was, but to me it did seem that way). As has already been pointed out, that's obviously down to migration to Insty, FB and elsewhere, or simply collector fatigue, life getting in the way, etc.

But it's mostly those other sites that people have departed to and caused this shift. I can't speak for all comic collectors and enthusiasts, but I do know it's a very hard hobby to quit. Furthermore this place has proven to be sturdy in the face of such online competition, with strict rules that may be draconian at times but do engender a convivial and genial atmosphere, which essentially is why this is still my number one website after 20 years of being here. I get so fed up with FB, X, etc. as those algorithms aren't there to bring people together. Yes there's some acrimony here but it's easy enough to bypass if you're not in the mood for it.

I was already pretty nerdy about the hobby / medium when I arrived, and considered myself a veteran even then, but I have learnt so much from boardies here who know so much more than I do about certain corners of collecting, especially in the GA section, which is still lively even if it is populated by oldies like me. Not to mention the friendships I've made, and the countless positive transactions I've done here.

I've learnt to be skeptical about the word community in recent years but this forum is one. And I agree about its legacy.

 

I'm a new collector and I am quite interested in GA/SA myself, since I'm only interested in the old Dell/Gold Key/Whitman comics. Modern superhero stuff isn't huge for me, although I do dabble in some modern indie series.

[COI]

On 11/25/2023 at 1:01 PM, VintageComics said:

Kav was very generous here with his efforts but was driven out by haters.

The majority of people here are "agreeable", which is a proper psychological definition. It means they're kind and easy going. Agreeable people don't like conflict and conflict drives people away. 

Nobody can dispute that there's a correlation between people who can't ignore what they don't like and driving those people away. 

Someone can only take so much before they've had enough and not come back and people complained about Kav all the time.

They would constantly notify on Kav, and by weaponizing the notify button, it made him look like a nail that constantly needs a hammer to moderation's eyes. 

People often leave just because some boardies can't ignore what they don't like or use the ignore feature because they can't moderate themselves.

By the psychological definition, I'm a pretty disagreeable guy, in real life and online. I like stirring the pot and I don't mind confrontation. I still manage to get along with people just fine for the most part though, because I also understand how others perceive me, and I calibrate accordingly. An example is having a thicker skin and expecting/accepting that some people just won't like me. It's fine. I don't get to have my cake and eat it too by being disagreeable and a little antagonistic, then crying when people say mean things to me, which is a roundabout way of saying I know that if I dish it out, I have to be able to take it. 

I do think that people sometimes get targeted unfairly, but often times, people who are bullied or feel persecuted bring at least some of that on themselves. That doesn't justify bullying or abuse, but social interactions are always a two way street. I agree with you, most people are agreeable, which also means that when someone is being picked on or centered out in some way, there's usually a reason for it. AGAIN, that doesn't justify abuse, but it's often the case that the people who are targeted get extremely defensive, which isn't conducive to self-examination. Because the vast majority of people aren't sadistic psychopaths who randomly target people, when someone is regularly targeted, unfairly or not, I think a little introspection by that person is in order.

I don't really know Kav. I've had some exchanges with him and I definitely teased him a bunch, but there was no malice on my end. I do think, however, that he wasn't the best at reading the room. I vaguely remember the whole "TWSS" thing, where he wouldn't stop spamming threads with it, and it was driving a lot of people nuts. I don't believe in moderating speech except for the most extreme examples, but on the flip side, if you don't understand social cues, you're going to have a bad time. That's just how it is.

[Dr. Balls]

On 11/25/2023 at 12:13 PM, 1950's war comics said:

there is a 24/7 mod now , back in the day the mods took the weekend off so Friday threads were wild

Oh MAN, that would explain why I got away with so many bikini picture posts back then.

[Dr. Balls]

On 11/25/2023 at 12:15 PM, COI said:

if you don't understand social cues, you're going to have a bad time. That's just how it is.

Sage advice on any message board.

[mintcomics1]

I was feeling all gung-ho to get going on another sales thread - now I just feel deflated.

Thanks Roy!

[VintageComics]

On 11/25/2023 at 2:15 PM, COI said:

AGAIN, that doesn't justify abuse,

Then stop justifying it. 

"She shouldn't have dressed that way." 

You don't have a leg to stand on here. Abuse is a lack of control by the person dishing it out. It is a total lack of maturity. Stop normalizing it. Full stop.

And addressing poor behavior in an objective manner, meaning everyone KNOWS where the line is, is far more equitable, easy, effective and FAIR than trying to subjectively figure out when someone has crossed a line too far. It's the "too far" part that is the problem because it's always different. 

Everyone knows what abuse looks like.

If you start making everything subjective, a decision eventually and necessarily will start contradicting itself and be seen as unfair to some people. 

Additionally, there is always a spin-off effect. Some (agreeable) people when they feel wronged will just leave or quiet down, but if you're a disagreeable personality (like You, Kav and I are) we are obviously going to start trying to push back, raising the heat rather than lowering it.

I can genuinely say my posting volume would have been reduced by 50% or more over the last few years, if I didn't have to constantly address poor behavior being thrown at me, and I think the same goes for many people who end up getting dinged. 

------------

BTW, I read everything you wrote in both posts and agree with most of it, as I usually do. 

I understand the complexity involved. I grew up in a family with 50 1st cousins, I was the oldest of 8 and have 6 kids myself (4 biological and 2 step kids). Being fair is hard, but sticking to objective, simple principles generally rule out the majority of complexity. 

If you use subjective reasoning you end up complicating everything by a factor of a zillion.

-------------

I'll finish by saying that it genuinely was not my intention to discuss this, I just "go where the ball is going" but it's a valid and worthwhile point worth discussing when discuss traffic on social media. 

 

I will say that I've seen a lot of benefits since Mike has started. His ability to discuss things with people has helped turn down the heat a lot around here. My post isn't a criticism of Mike per se, but rather a criticism of the guiding principles Mike operates under. 

I think abuse and bullying are far too common among some people. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by VintageComics