ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[zombielunch]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:04 AM, Microchip said:

No freaking way!

All of this guys books like swap outs!!!

The grading on #340's is razor sharp, this is 8.5-9.0 sitting in a 9.8 holder!!!

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285594095445?hash=item427ebc0f55:g:~loAAOSwMTBlb~Pt

even worse look at the back cover of that corner on the scan: https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/4329914001/

 

[Microchip]

On 12/21/2023 at 4:05 PM, WolverineX said:

probably done this for years

Where are we at... 

He buys expensive books, swaps it out with a lessor copy.   Even if he cracks the case, he has the label with the hologram.  So he puts a inferior copy in with the correct label, glues everything back together, then re-subs the original book.  And probably makes close to double his money.

[Timed]

On 12/20/2023 at 11:02 PM, Nick Furious said:

I'm not giving much credence to the "inside man" theory.  I really think it's much more likely that he just found a loophole in the re-holdering option and exploited the heck out of it.  

I didn't have much belief in that myself at first, but now after seeing all these other books and the fact that the seller has admitted to having friends at CGC (keep in mind this was in private messages with the guy who initially found the swapped 252, as they were acquaintances already)... I just don't know now.

[Nick Furious]

On 12/20/2023 at 11:09 PM, Heronext said:

Maybe the "special relationship" he has alluded to is as a customer who does a lot of reholdering & spends a lot on custom labels.  I'm wondering how he reseals books, and if it's so undetectable, why even get them reholdered.

He gets them re-holdered to convert Newsstand labels to Mark Jeweler labels and Green label to blue labels.  That part is not speculation.  And maybe even Restored labels to Blue labels...but that part is speculation.  

[Timed]

On 12/20/2023 at 11:04 PM, Microchip said:

No freaking way!

All of this guys books like swap outs!!!

The grading on #340's is razor sharp, this is 8.5-9.0 sitting in a 9.8 holder!!!

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285594095445?hash=item427ebc0f55:g:~loAAOSwMTBlb~Pt

Another blatantly obvious fraud. That is a dog ear that would bring any other book to a 9.0 or 9.2 at best, even if a CGC grader was grading this book and got laid the same morning before work.

Deeper we go.

[Microchip]

All of them... that top right corner makes it less than a 9.0 every day of the week at CGC!!!

There's no way one guy has the monopoly on poorly graded books, unless he's working there, grading his, or a friends books.

This guy needs to be stopped!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285548159227?hash=item427bff20fb:g:BJkAAOSwfsFlSfI6

 

[Nick Furious]

On 12/20/2023 at 11:10 PM, Microchip said:

Where are we at... 

He buys expensive books, swaps it out with a lessor copy.   Even if he cracks the case, he has the label with the hologram.  So he puts a inferior copy in with the correct label, glues everything back together, then re-subs the original book.  And probably makes close to double his money.

Correct, but don't miss the point that he re-holders not for a higher grade, but to change the labeling on the new book.  If it were just for a higher grade, as mentioned by @Heronext, he would not need to resubmit the books.  And who knows how much of that has gone on without the involvement of CGC.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Nick Furious

[Timed]

On 12/20/2023 at 11:04 PM, Microchip said:

No freaking way!

All of this guys books like swap outs!!!

The grading on #340's is razor sharp, this is 8.5-9.0 sitting in a 9.8 holder!!!

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285594095445?hash=item427ebc0f55:g:~loAAOSwMTBlb~Pt

By the way besides the dog ear, check out the back. First thing I noticed.

Crazy.

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:10 AM, Nick Furious said:

On 12/21/2023 at 12:05 AM, paqart said:

I have to agree with this, for psychology reasons alone. If someone tells me I made a mistake, I tend to look it over very carefully to determine 1) is it true, 2) how did I make the mistake.

I don't know why we are getting hung up on whether or not CGC opened the inner well in the re-slabbing process.  I don't think anyone overtly claimed that they did not, and it's kind of immaterial to the overall issue.  

Some people claimed that they did not, but it was fairly early on in the discussion when we were focusing on just two books.

The ASM #252 that got reholdered as an MJ insert and with a new custom label and the NM #98 that got reholdered with just a new label.

This has gone way past that now, and if I was wrong I'm happy to admit it. 

[OJ Pimpson]

CGC is looking at this guy’s grading history and they are so shook they can’t even release a statement 

[Heronext]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:13 AM, Nick Furious said:

He gets them re-holdered to convert Newsstand labels to Mark Jeweler labels and Green label to blue labels.  That part is not speculation.  And maybe even Restored labels to Blue labels...but that part is speculation.  

Getting "Mark Jeweller" added to label is not really necessary, he can still sell it as 9.8 MJV without the label notation, market would still eat it up IMO.  If his reseal fools CGC it would fool a buyer; why go through CGC.  Same for Green>Blue scam: if his reseals are so good he doesn't need CGC; in fact doing so theoretically makes the scam more detectible.  Only thing I can think is maybe the custom label is to make the new slab look "different" from the old slab, and maybe to fix a crack... But then, that should be suspicious to CGC... Are his reseals perfect or not...?

Edited December 21, 2023 by Heronext

[Timed]

[spidermanbeyond]

This looks like an inside job.  He even said he knows people.

[Microchip]

On 12/21/2023 at 4:18 PM, Nick Furious said:

Correct, but don't miss the point that he re-holders not for a higher grade, but to change the labeling on the new book.  If it were just for a higher grade, as mentioned by @Heronext, he would not need to resubmit the books.  And who knows how much of that has gone on without the involvement of CGC.

So he sends a doctored slab in for a custom label, with the inner well still secure?

CGC wouldn't doubt the book, and serial number.   They wouldn't re-open the inner well "just to check" the MJ insert, if the slab already had the notation saying it was there.

Minimalglue used to put the slab back together, they might not sort the handy work when they open it up.

[Silver Surfer]

On 12/20/2023 at 9:20 PM, VintageComics said:

Some people claimed that they did not, but it was fairly early on in the discussion when we were focusing on just two books.

The ASM #252 that got reholdered as an MJ insert and with a new custom label and the NM #98 that got reholdered with just a new label.

This has gone way past that now, and if I was wrong I'm happy to admit it. 

Roy don’t give them any reason to shut down this thread as I’m sure they like nothing more than to see this sink hole of a thread get filled and locked  This is turning into a PR disaster. 

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:28 AM, Silver Surfer said:

Roy don’t give them any reason to shut down this thread as I’m sure they like nothing more than to see this sink hole of a thread get filled and locked  This is turning into a PR disaster. 

What are you talking about? Why would you quote me and what reason did I give them to shut this thread down?

[Microchip]

Anyone want to tackle this one.   There's no way this isn't fishy.   The scan of the book looks ok, which just leaves the MJ notation as the suspect element.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285600398199?hash=item427f1c3b77:g:Th8AAOSwTGRldTw6

 

[migmtl76]

Did you guys see this :

 

[Heronext]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:31 AM, migmtl76 said:

Did you guys see this :

 

Yes a couple pages back

[Nick Furious]

On 12/20/2023 at 11:26 PM, Heronext said:

Getting "Mark Jeweller" added to label is not really necessary, he can still sell it as 9.8 MJV without the label notation, market would still eat it up IMO.  If his reseal fools CGC it would fool a buyer; why go through CGC.  Same for Green>Blue scam: if his reseals are so good he doesn't need CGC.  Only thing I can think is maybe the custom label is to make the new slab look "different" from the old slab, and maybe to fix a crack... But then, that should be suspicious to CGC... Are his reseals perfect or not...?

Those are very valid points.  I can see where he would still want the MJ designation on the label to get full price, but you are right, if the Hulk 181 green label swap was good enough for CGC then it should be good enough for an Ebay customer without going through CGC for the re-holder.