ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Silver Surfer]

On 12/20/2023 at 9:30 PM, VintageComics said:

What are you talking about? Why would you quote me and what reason did I give them to shut this thread down?

Just to keep the bickering down so they don’t use that as a reason to shut this down. Don’t argue with me. 

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:34 AM, Silver Surfer said:

Just to keep the bickering down so they don’t use that as a reason to shut this down. Don’t argue with me. 

I wasn't bickering. I was apologizing for possibly being wrong, dork.

Where have you been, anyway?

Edited December 21, 2023 by VintageComics

[Lightning55]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:26 AM, Heronext said:

Getting "Mark Jeweller" added to label is not really necessary, he can still sell it as 9.8 MJV without the label notation, market would still eat it up IMO.

If you are trying to convince someone that the comic in the slab is MJ, and it doesn't state it on the label, or in the notes, or on the lookup page, why would they take your word for it.

You need that verification on the label, or a fool for a buyer. 

[Microchip]

On 12/21/2023 at 4:39 PM, Lightning55 said:

On 12/21/2023 at 4:26 PM, Heronext said:

Getting "Mark Jeweller" added to label is not really necessary, he can still sell it as 9.8 MJV without the label notation, market would still eat it up IMO.

If you are trying to convince someone that the comic in the slab is MJ, and it doesn't state it on the label, or in the notes, or on the lookup page, why would they take your word for it.

You need that verification on the label, or a fool for a buyer. 

Agreed.   And thats not what is happening here.   The labels MJ on them, and the cert numbers when checked with CGC, have the MJ notation verified as belonging to that cert number.

[Heronext]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:32 AM, Nick Furious said:

Those are very valid points.  I can see where he would still want the MJ designation on the label to get full price

I suppose it does somewhat more "legitimize" what has already become a shady assemblage of paper and plastic

[Lightning55]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:26 AM, Microchip said:

CGC wouldn't doubt the book, and serial number.   They wouldn't re-open the inner well "just to check" the MJ insert, if the slab already had the notation saying it was there.

That's the point - the label did not say MJ, and fixing that error was the pretense for reholdering it.

If challenged that it was labeled incorrectly, for something that is inside the book, you have to open the inner capsule to check. Or at least you are supposed to. Yes, you might see some evidence of the insert from the edges, but you shouldn't draw a conclusion from that. You open it and verify. 

[VintageComics]

Has anyone gotten an actual name from the seller?

Has it been mentioned in any of the videos? I didn't see it in the videos I watched. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by VintageComics

[Timed]

On 12/20/2023 at 11:48 PM, VintageComics said:

Has anyone gotten an actual name from the seller?

Has it been mentioned in any of the videos? I didn't see it in the videos I watched. 

@zaneglor_comics on IG. Some posts already deleted, and account is now private.

Backstory is in this video.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Timed

[Heronext]

On 12/20/2023 at 4:20 PM, Mutant Manatee said:

I just noticed that the seller in question has made their eBay feedback private.  This just happened within the past hour.  You can no longer see what that recent negative comment said.

Here are screen grabs I took back when someone said his feedback "looked good".  At the time I was thinking they all look like they were written by the same person but it's probably too much to think these are all shill accounts.  I don't think I've had 8 buyers in a row gush over my packaging.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Heronext

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:52 AM, Timed said:

@zaneglor_comics on IG. Some posts already deleted, and account is now private.

Thanks. I wanted to see if it was someone I knew. I've never heard the name.

[paqart]

FYI: We have three parties with an interest in catching this guy: 1) ripped off customers, 2) CGC, 3) eBay. 
eBay was used as the vehicle for this fraud. Money changed hands through them. They probably have to make good the losses to any customers who contact them, and have a duty to contact the ones who don't. This does damage CGC's reputation, but in this situation, I think the most likely scenario goes like this:

The customers, one or more, complain to eBay and demand refunds. EBay grants the refunds, investigates the seller and the fraud. They determine the fraud is done through CGC. EBay can then sue CGC and the fraudster himself. In CGC's case, they don't have to know what was going on to be sued. Their negligence alone is enough. Add to it the possibility that the fraudster has a "friend" at CGC, and eBay has a very good reason to go after CGC.

However, it gets more complicated. The reason is that a lot of CGC product is sold on eBay. EBay doesn't want to compromise CGC's reputation any more than CGC wants to have it compromised. Regardless, they can threaten to do it unless something is done.

This is a much bigger issue than it appears at first. Also, this is officially counterfeiting, even if not money. I got a check from Fox Television when they did the equivalent of counterfeiting my comic when they turned it into a TV series by putting Chris Carter's name as the "creator". That is called "false designation of origin", which is the same thing that happens with knockoff Levi's and Timex watches. I think that is what is happening here, but in the collectibles market.

Also consider that Queens is heavily industrial, and may well have a warehouse somewhere with the right equipment. Then add in the fact that there are a lot of organized crime gangs in that area. Not just "the Mob", but Russian and Chinese gangs as well. This may well be organized crime we're looking at.

CGC is in such hot water right now that I doubt their lawyers would let them say a word until they have a much better handle on it.

Edited December 21, 2023 by paqart

[drotto]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:32 AM, Nick Furious said:

Those are very valid points.  I can see where he would still want the MJ designation on the label to get full price, but you are right, if the Hulk 181 green label swap was good enough for CGC then it should be good enough for an Ebay customer without going through CGC for the re-holder.  

I suspect whatever method is being used to open the case, causes at least some damage to the holder.  We all know how people buying a slab will sometimes freak out if there is a scratch on the case for a book they spent big money on.  Even one that has zero effect on the book itself, or the value of the book. So, if there was any apparent damage to a case it would risk a high level of returns, and lead to bad eBay reviews, effecting their ability to sell there. So whatever damage the seller is doing, they have figured out CGC does not consider it suspicious damage, and is happy to re-holder it. The loophole they have found is that CGC does not seem to be very careful in rechecking the books submitted for re-holder.  Even if CGC catches it, as a few others have noted, CGC would call them and either give them the option to take the book back, try and fix the damage, or regrade the book.  It seems they are not suspicious that the submitter is causing the damage. 

 

I suspect that if CGC looks through it records, they can find a submitter that has an unusual level a grail resubmissions for new labels, missed notations, or re-holders due to damage. As long as the subs are being consistently done on one or a small number of accounts. I even checked a few of my books in new cases.  The short edges are not welded, and is fairly easy to create some separation between the two halves. I am not sure I could create more then 3 or 4 mm of space without causing some real damage, but it may be possible with patience or some appropriate tools, only making some "innocent" looking stress cracks. I suspect they are entering through the bottom edge, but is anyone willing to test this theory? I am sure if anyone posted it however, it would get memory holed here really fast. 

[Lightning55]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:41 AM, Microchip said:

Agreed.   And thats not what is happening here.   The labels MJ on them, and the cert numbers when checked with CGC, have the MJ notation verified as belonging to that cert number.

But it is what happened here, if you read from the beginning. 

The original cert did not have MJ, because it wasn't MJ. The seller took the original book out, put a lower grade MJ book in, resealed it. Sent it back, said it was an error on CGC'S part, mislabeled. Got them to fix the label and reholder it, same cert. All this "allegedly", of course. 

[Microchip]

On 12/21/2023 at 4:59 PM, Lightning55 said:

But it is what happened here, if you read from the beginning. 

The original cert did not have MJ, because it wasn't MJ. The seller took the original book out, put a lower grade MJ book in, resealed it. Sent it back, said it was an error on CGC'S part, mislabeled. Got them to fix the label and reholder it, same cert. All this "allegedly", of course. 

Ah ok, yeah that would work too.   And CGC honour the grade of the slab, the book arrived in.   They're just doing a mechanical error adjustment submission as far as they're concerned.   They wash the crime into legitimacy. 

[Lightning55]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:03 AM, Microchip said:

Ah ok, yeah that would work too.   And CGC honour the grade of the slab, the book arrived in.   They're just doing a mechanical error adjustment submission as far as they're concerned.   They wash the crime into legitimacy. 

Exactly. Allegedly.

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:59 AM, drotto said:

The short edges are not welded, and is fairly easy to create some separation between the two halves.

This is actually done on purpose so that the book can be safely cracked out without damaging the book while trying to open the holder. 

Remember, not everyone wants their books to stay in holders. Some collectors crack their books out to put them in their PC, some Sig Series guys crack their books out for signing and some flippers crack their books out to either sell raw or resubmit. While many love to keep their books in CGC holders, not everyone does. 

If the holder was welded solid all the way around, you wouldn't be able to open it up safely without damaging the book. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by VintageComics

[Microchip]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:05 PM, Lightning55 said:

On 12/21/2023 at 5:03 PM, Microchip said:

Ah ok, yeah that would work too.   And CGC honour the grade of the slab, the book arrived in.   They're just doing a mechanical error adjustment submission as far as they're concerned.   They wash the crime into legitimacy. 

Exactly. Allegedly.

The picture stacks up based on the operational side of CGC we know about.

ME changes to slabs seem fairly frequent these days.   He could put slow and steady stream of them through without raising too much attention.

[paqart]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:48 AM, VintageComics said:

Has anyone gotten an actual name from the seller?

Has it been mentioned in any of the videos? I didn't see it in the videos I watched. 

"briva3". My guess is a name with first initial "B" and a last name that is or starts with "Riva".

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:09 AM, paqart said:

"briva3". My guess is a name with first initial "B" and a last name that is or starts with "Riva".

Someone answered it. Not sure where your name came from. 

On 12/21/2023 at 12:52 AM, Timed said:

@zaneglor_comics on IG. Some posts already deleted, and account is now private.

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by VintageComics

[drotto]

Also, reholdering gives them two high grade books to sell, after they resubmit the high grade copy. So they can essentially dubble dip. If the trasfering wells theory is correct, it makes no sense to put the high grade in the lessor case, they need that second high grade case.

 

Finally, they want they book to show up on CGC census correctly, so they need those legit numbers.