ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:57 AM, Axelrod said:

You do not seem to understand what constitutes the fraud here.  

This is saying that if you defraud someone and get away with it, it's not your fault because the person you defrauded didn't catch it....

Hey man, you had every opportunity to catch me, and you didn't.  Not my fault?  

see the scenarios I listed out above. Again, theres no question what he's doing is wrong. But how he is doing wrong is what determines if it is criminally fraudulent. I contend that there are scenarios that he can get away with. Civil fraud is a different matter. 

[uncannyjames]

On 12/21/2023 at 9:52 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

If I listed it as a blue labelCGC 9.6  Hulk 181,well that's what it is. Says so right on the label. NOT FRAUD

If a seller knowingly misrepresents what they are selling that is fraud. It does not matter that the case has a blue label. If the seller knows that the book is mislabeled and does not divulge that the book is labeled incorrectly because of the missing value stamp they are misrepresenting what they are trying to sell which is fraud.

[Ryan.]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:04 AM, ThothAmon said:

Epstein? On a related subject, do you think a shark can beat a dolphin?  

 

I take it you weren’t in my 1L Criminal Law class?

 

I was in that class and, if memory serves, in the Case of Shark vs Dolphin 1996, Dolphin was successful by effectively arguing that Ecco the Dolphin destroyed all sharks with his echo powers.

[Artboy99]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:05 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

see the scenarios I listed out above. Again, theres no question what he's doing is wrong. But how he is doing wrong is what determines if it is criminally fraudulent. I contend that there are scenarios that he can get away with. Civil fraud is a different matter. 

I dispute the notation that selling a book that has a CGC blue label while knowing the book inside is missing the marvel value stamp is not committing fraud.

[godzilla43]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:10 PM, uncannyjames said:

If a seller knowingly misrepresents what they are selling that is fraud. It does not matter that the case has a blue label. If the seller knows that the book is mislabeled and does not divulge that the book is labeled incorrectly because of the missing value stamp they are misrepresenting what they are trying to sell which is fraud.

What would you say if someone lets say water cleans, photo bleaches.. (or whatever those advance cleaning techniques are) comic book which should get you a purple label but some of those comes as blue label.  Winner winner chicken dinner.

[ThothAmon]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:20 AM, Artboy99 said:

I dispute the notation that selling a book that has a CGC blue label while knowing the book inside is missing the marvel value stamp is not committing fraud.

Proof of that knowledge in most cases might be difficult. Not so much here as the photographic evidence is overwhelming as well as the admissions made to the 9.9newsstand guy. 

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/21/2023 at 9:47 AM, paqart said:

Despite your emphatic use of the powerful word, "Period," I believe you are mistaken. 

I believe you missed where I said "in the eyes of eBay".

In the eyes of eBay, these are what is described in the listing.  

On 12/21/2023 at 9:47 AM, paqart said:

The buyers do not have to wait on CGC to get action here. This involves too many other interests for that.

Of course not. EBay could force a refund today if they choose to.  PayPal has 6 months to refund.

If by "action" you mean criminal charges, then CGC would have to be involved. They are the ones who can explain/prove any wrongdoing.  Everything else is just hearsay.

And if CGC is put on the stand and asked if these are slabbed and labeled from their factory with their gaurantee, without tampering, they'd have to say "yes".

If they say "yes, but we didn't realize we were being scammed because we failed at our jobs and our guarantee means nothing!"...the answer is still yes. 

[paqart]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:30 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

I see lots of talk about how this guy is going to jail,  eBay, CGC, the USPS, FBI, the Canadian Mounties, MI6 all all mounting a joint investigation to take this guy down. 

umm, no. None of that will happen. Not even a remote possibility. The only "Fear" that briva3 has now that his current accounts are "outed" is he's thinking to himself  "dude what a major hassle" and he's not going to bank an easy 20-30k this month Now he has to set up a new eBay ID and CGC account possibly. 

and why is that? Well, if every single book that he sold was graded by CGC, slabbed and labeled by CGC, any inaccuracies in the grade are 100% not his responsibility. He didn't misrepresent the product, he provided pictures, it's a legit serial number from CGC. He didn't break a single law and did not violate any of eBay's terms of use, or Paypal, the USPS, or anyone else. 

Did he exploit the system to trick CGC in reholdering books? Probably. Did he swap out comics in the sealed slabs? Probably.  But CGC had the books in hand and they had every opportunity to catch on to the ruse. It's not materially different than them getting the grade "wrong" or mislabeling something, or not catching resto. Hey, the game is to "get away" with as much as possible to get the highest grade for that serial number (notice I didn't say comic, no one care about the comic itself, that ship has sailed, let's stop pretending)

 

 

You make some interesting points, but if I was a prosecutor, I'd take this case. If I was a forensic investigator for the police, I would also take the case. The reason has to do with the interesting issues raised by the known and unknown issues at play here and the opportunity to set a precedent.

1) You're right about who did the counterfeiting (CGC), but they likely did it unknowingly due to negligence. They didn't intend to commit the crime of counterfeiting, so they have no mens rea. However, their service "guarantees" the product going in the holders, and the grade. Therefore, although they have no knowledge of the crime, they either do have knowledge they aren't performing the advertised service, or they don't. Either way, they are allowing counterfeits to be made through them via negligence. This is like an armored truck company using bicycle couriers instead of armored trucks. I don't think this is something CGC can sweep under the rug by paying everyone off. The reason is that it exposes an underlying process failure.

2) CGC may have no knowledge of the crime but they do bear responsibility for the counterfeiting. The seller has knowledge of the crime but is not responsible for the counterfeiting. However, if not for his intentional actions with mens rea, the counterfeits would not have been made. Therefore, the seller is responsible for the counterfeits even if he didn't make them. This is the same principle that made Charles Manson guilty of murder in the Tate/LaBianca killings, though he wasn't there and didn't participate. If not for him, they wouldn't have happened. Sorry for the extreme example, but it's what came to mind.

3) If I was an investigator, I'd be very curious whether this was organized crime. Even if not, I wouldn't want to rule it out without an investigation. Based on what has been discussed here, the quantity of swap outs makes that a realistic possibility. For instance, what if there are multiple accounts submitting these to CGC to hide what's going on? Based on quantity alone, I would expect this many reholders due to a CGC "error" to draw attention. Since that apparently didn't happen, I'd feel duty bound to at least look into the possibility multiple people are involved.

4) The serial number is not legit. The reason is the serial number, once assigned, goes with the comic it was assigned to. By substituting a different comic, the new comic appears to have a serial number assigned to a different comic. That is "false designation of origin." That is a Lanham Act violation. Personally, I don't think a district attorney would find CGC liable for this when they were manipulated into it by a scammer tricking them, but Lanham Act violations often involve conspiracies among groups of people to commit larger frauds than an individual is capable of committing. If this was just a couple of comics, it would be easier to think this was just one guy, but from what I'm reading here, many more slabs are involved than that. Also, this has every appearance of being a sophisticated, mature operation. That is another indication that it needs to be looked into.

I looked around at how eBay deals with this. From the looks of it, some posters here are right to think eBay won't want to do anything beyond limiting seller access to the eBay community. However, interested third parties, like the French government, have found eBay responsible for fraud on their site. Therefore, this could be something eBay has no control over.

[paqart]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:16 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

If he lists a CGC Fartman #1 as a CGC graded 9.8 with photos and shipped them a CGC Graded 9.4. That's misrepresenting the product.  eBay wouldn't hesitate to refund that. 

If he lists a CGC 9.8 Fartman #1, shows a photo of it, and it is exactly that book that is shipped to the buyer, then he did not misrepresent anything from eBays perspective. Nada, zilch. IF CGC missed that it's a 9.4 inside that 9.8 holder is not his problem or liability. He didn't warrant that the grade was accurate or any such guarantee. He sold a thing in a slab with a label, he shipped the same thing in a slab with that label. Pretty black and white if you ask me. 

This doesn't pass the smell test. There is no way an eBay buyer could be expected to understand that the grade and serial number on the holder don't match the comic inside. This is where CGC's full name "Certified Guarantee Company" comes back to haunt them. They are guaranteeing the authenticity of the comic, but the comics are not authentically what they purport to be. They are misrepresented because they have a false designation of what they are. This is no different from slapping a genuine Levi's label on a pair of knockoff Levi's jeans.

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 12/21/2023 at 9:20 AM, Artboy99 said:

I dispute the notion that selling a book that has a CGC blue label while knowing the book inside is missing the marvel value stamp is not committing fraud.

ok, that's fair. Maybe is harder to prove beyond a reasonable doubt but perhaps it can be construed as fraud. @ThothAmon enlighten us.

 

On 12/21/2023 at 9:24 AM, paqart said:

You make some interesting points, but if I was a prosecutor, I'd take this case. If I was a forensic investigator for the police, I would also take the case. The reason has to do with the interesting issues raised by the known and unknown issues at play here and the opportunity to set a precedent.

1) You're right about who did the counterfeiting (CGC), but they likely did it unknowingly due to negligence. They didn't intend to commit the crime of counterfeiting, so they have no mens rea. However, their service "guarantees" the product going in the holders, and the grade. Therefore, although they have no knowledge of the crime, they either do have knowledge they aren't performing the advertised service, or they don't. Either way, they are allowing counterfeits to be made through them via negligence. This is like an armored truck company using bicycle couriers instead of armored trucks. I don't think this is something CGC can sweep under the rug by paying everyone off. The reason is that it exposes an underlying process failure.

2) CGC may have no knowledge of the crime but they do bear responsibility for the counterfeiting. The seller has knowledge of the crime but is not responsible for the counterfeiting. However, if not for his intentional actions with mens rea, the counterfeits would not have been made. Therefore, the seller is responsible for the counterfeits even if he didn't make them. This is the same principle that made Charles Manson guilty of murder in the Tate/LaBianca killings, though he wasn't there and didn't participate. If not for him, they wouldn't have happened. Sorry for the extreme example, but it's what came to mind.

3) If I was an investigator, I'd be very curious whether this was organized crime. Even if not, I wouldn't want to rule it out without an investigation. Based on what has been discussed here, the quantity of swap outs makes that a realistic possibility. For instance, what if there are multiple accounts submitting these to CGC to hide what's going on? Based on quantity alone, I would expect this many reholders due to a CGC "error" to draw attention. Since that apparently didn't happen, I'd feel duty bound to at least look into the possibility multiple people are involved.

4) The serial number is not legit. The reason is the serial number, once assigned, goes with the comic it was assigned to. By substituting a different comic, the new comic appears to have a serial number assigned to a different comic. That is "false designation of origin." That is a Lanham Act violation. Personally, I don't think a district attorney would find CGC liable for this when they were manipulated into it by a scammer tricking them, but Lanham Act violations often involve conspiracies among groups of people to commit larger frauds than an individual is capable of committing. If this was just a couple of comics, it would be easier to think this was just one guy, but from what I'm reading here, many more slabs are involved than that. Also, this has every appearance of being a sophisticated, mature operation. That is another indication that it needs to be looked into.

I looked around at how eBay deals with this. From the looks of it, some posters here are right to think eBay won't want to do anything beyond limiting seller access to the eBay community. However, interested third parties, like the French government, have found eBay responsible for fraud on their site. Therefore, this could be something eBay has no control over.

thank you for the detailed reply- I find the point I bolded above about the serial number to be a fascinating legal angle that hasn't really been brought up before. 

[Axelrod]

On 12/21/2023 at 9:52 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

again, to be criminally fraudulent, the devil is in the details.  

• If I crack, press,and clean an old blue label 9.0 Hulk #181 and resub and get back a 9.6 is that fraud? No.
  • If I sell the above, is that fraud? No.
  • if the pressed book shrinks back to it's original imperfections and it no longer appears as a 9.6 and I sell it, is that fraud? No.
• If I send in a Hulk #181 with a missing MVS and by some miracle they don't catch it and I get a blue label 9.6 is that fraud? No.
  • If I sell the Blue label hulk #181 with the missing MVS on ebay is that fraud? Depends.
    • If I listed it as a blue labelCGC 9.6  Hulk 181,well that's what it is. Says so right on the label. NOT FRAUD
    • If I listed it as a a blue labelCGC 9.6  Hulk 181 and stated in the listing that the MVS is intact. THAT'S FRAUD.
• If I send in a Hulk #181 with a missing MVS that I slipped into another blue labeled slab for a reholder or custom label and I get a blue label 9.6 is that fraud? Maybe? I contend no, because you aren't selling it to them, you are paying for a service from them. If you trick them into giving you a better grade that it deserves you're a bad person, it might violate some CGC terms of use, but it's not criminal.
  • If I sell the Blue label hulk #181 with the missing MVS on ebay is that fraud? Depends.
    • If I listed it as a blue labelCGC 9.6  Hulk 181,well that's what it is. Says so right on the label. NOT FRAUD
    • If I listed it as a a blue labelCGC 9.6  Hulk 181 without a missing MVS. THAT'S FRAUD

I mean, if your larger point is that the guy is unlikely to be charged criminally because (a) it's comic book fraud and/or (b) some kinds of fraud are harder to "prove" than others, I would not disagree.  It is unlikely this guy gets criminally prosecuted for this.

That does not mean he has not committed fraud and that it is not actually a crime.  To your points:

(1) If you crack/press/resubmit then I agree this is not fraud.  This is gambling.

(2) If you sent in a comic with a missing MVS and you knew the MVS was missing when you sent it in, but CGC didn't catch it.  You later sell the book without disclosing the defect.  You have committed fraud.  You cannot - legally - claim that "CGC graded this and they gave it a Blue label so it's not on me that they missed the defect.

Do you get prosecuted for this?  Almost certainly not.  Again, it's the knowledge part that is virtually impossible to prove.  How do we "prove" that you knew the MVS was missing?  Unless you are on tape admitting it somewhere, that's not a case a DA is going to bother trying to make.

(3) If you have cracked a CGC case and slipped in a different book, and then you sell the different book as though it was the old one, you have committed fraud.  This isn't really debatable.  The fact you slipped your fraud past CGC does not validate it.  Proving you did this, however, could be a pain and not worth a prosecutor's time.  

 

[paqart]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:25 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

actually, CGC has unknowingly legitimized his alleged criminal enterprise. Again. where is the fraud? who is the injured party, and who is directly responsible for the injury? I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I know the guy is scumbag, but he's possible a smart and successful one. If he cracked slabs and swapped out books and sold those directly to a person on any forum, THEN he has committed fraud that's pretty black and white. It's just difficult to prove it.

This is not tough to prove. There is no way to get the previously certified comic out of the holder, then replace it with a lower value similar comic, and then trick CGC into re-encapsulating so that the now mislabeled can be sold for a profit without mens rea, "criminal knowledge." That can't happen any other way. It is clear as day this is fraud designed for criminal profit.

[drotto]

7

On 12/21/2023 at 9:52 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

again, to be criminally fraudulent, the devil is in the details.  

• If I crack, press,and clean an old blue label 9.0 Hulk #181 and resub and get back a 9.6 is that fraud? No.
  • If I sell the above, is that fraud? No.
  • if the pressed book shrinks back to it's original imperfections and it no longer appears as a 9.6 and I sell it, is that fraud? No.
• If I send in a Hulk #181 with a missing MVS and by some miracle they don't catch it and I get a blue label 9.6 is that fraud? No.
  • If I sell the Blue label hulk #181 with the missing MVS on ebay is that fraud? Depends.
    • If I listed it as a blue labelCGC 9.6  Hulk 181,well that's what it is. Says so right on the label. NOT FRAUD
    • If I listed it as a a blue labelCGC 9.6  Hulk 181 and stated in the listing that the MVS is intact. THAT'S FRAUD.
• If I send in a Hulk #181 with a missing MVS that I slipped into another blue labeled slab for a reholder or custom label and I get a blue label 9.6 is that fraud? Maybe? I contend no, because you aren't selling it to them, you are paying for a service from them. If you trick them into giving you a better grade that it deserves you're a bad person, it might violate some CGC terms of use, but it's not criminal.
  • If I sell the Blue label hulk #181 with the missing MVS on ebay is that fraud? Depends.
    • If I listed it as a blue labelCGC 9.6  Hulk 181,well that's what it is. Says so right on the label. NOT FRAUD
    • If I listed it as a a blue labelCGC 9.6  Hulk 181 without a missing MVS. THAT'S FRAUD

1. Not the same.  Pressing and cleaning are an excepted way of increasing the value of a book.  CGC has in fact endorsed the practice.  Any collector buys a slab with the knowldge that this has likely been done to the book. They key is the buyer knows or has a reasonable expectation this has occurred, and CGC recognizes it. There is no way a collector would expect a case has been swapped.

2. The buyer has a reasonable expectation that CGC would catch a missing MVS, since they represent themselves as expert graders. So any value change if they fail in their job, they are responsible for, unless a book has been tampered with.  A submitter that knowingly sells a mislabeled book is guilty of fraud, because they have knowledge of the mistake, and are now selling it as something it is not. A subsequent buyer is not liable, because they lack the knowledge and without damaging the product can not know. The original submitter and CGC are still at fault.

3. Swapping cases is fraud. The seller is knowingly and intentionally doing an action that increases the value of the book, and hiding or not disclosing that alteration to the buyer. What it says on the label is irrelevant, the seller has performed knowingly an action that has changed the value and misrepresents the product. CGC is complicent in this case, because as "expert graders" they buyer has a reasonable expectation they should have caught the deseption. They are not responsible for the original fraudulent action.

[Heronext]

On 12/21/2023 at 9:40 AM, VintageComics said:

@Changer

@Lightning55 How can you confirm they've always had scans? I don't know if this is true, because adding scans to your order used to delay your order regularly whereas not scanning your order expedited it. 

Whether or not they have always scanned all books (for themselves) (I don't think so), what would be even more useful here would be a CGC database of scans of all submissions BEFORE they are put in the cases.  Slab scans often obscure unique identifying details like spine ticks.  My experience is that CGC's scans are not the clearest in this regard

[paqart]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:49 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

but that is all that matters. He didn't sell it to CGC. On the contrary, he paid them some fee to perform a service. Again, where's the fraud? He may have violated some terms of use if there is any such fine print by manipulating the slab and CGC not recognizing this, but it's not criminal. 

Yes, it is. He sold a forgery. Making and selling forgeries is a crime. He sold them on eBay. EBay may not be responsible for the fraud, but they are holding the bag when the customer wants a refund and the seller disappears. EBay has a cause of action (civil) against CGC for guaranteeing something that wasn't authentic, and against the seller for recovery of the refund given the buyer. The police have a criminal case against the seller for forgery, counterfeiting, and fraud, though the counterfeiting and interstate nature of the crime may kick it up to federal jurisdiction.

[uncannyjames]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:22 AM, godzilla43 said:

What would you say if someone lets say water cleans, photo bleaches.. (or whatever those advance cleaning techniques are) comic book which should get you a purple label but some of those comes as blue label.  Winner winner chicken dinner.

This scenario is considerably different than a missing value stamp which makes a book incomplete. Also, this scenario is considerably different than what the perceived fraud originally discussed in this thread is which involves knowingly selling a comic that has been re-holdered in the wrong case.

I am not a conservator so I don't really have an opinion on that. However, I imagine there are many who think this is fraudulent while there are others that feel cleaning is okay. Once again, a completely different animal than swapping books in different cases.

[godzilla43]

Yeah I only read the beginning. Agreeing about the value stamp missing.

[ThothAmon]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:30 AM, Axelrod said:

Proving you did this, however, could be a pain and not worth a prosecutor's time.

First problem is a “victim” (which could include CGC) but really the person who is out the dough needs to report to the police. Until that happens we’re just farting in the wind. My guess is would be treated seriously as the ASM 252 alone is valued which makes this a D Felony under nys penal law. Queens da is relatively tough also. 
 

Edited December 21, 2023 by ThothAmon

[paqart]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:08 AM, Sigur Ros said:

No.

CGC isn't a pass-through company (except in these cases 😉).  They create the product.

You should have said "US Mint" instead of "bank". 🤷

Then you'd have understood the point.

Actually, this is something that has always bothered me about CGC. They are effectively minting money. They can, if they chose to do so, put false labels on comics to increase their apparent value. Because this is possible, it makes good sense for them to jealously guard the integrity of their operation. Anything less, and they can get into a lot of trouble for effectively rigging prices. This happened when it was discovered that Sotheby's and Christie's colluded for the purpose of setting prices for the things they sold. That resulted in a huge fine (nine figures) and the president of Sotheby's getting fired.

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:30 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

On 12/21/2023 at 10:20 AM, Artboy99 said:

I dispute the notion that selling a book that has a CGC blue label while knowing the book inside is missing the marvel value stamp is not committing fraud.

ok, that's fair. Maybe is harder to prove beyond a reasonable doubt but perhaps it can be construed as fraud.

I think based on the seller's public communication history, intent is not difficult to prove as there is a repeated pattern of provable behavior that is contradicted by their communication, meaning it's relatively easy to see that they purposefully weren't telling the truth about the books.