ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[drotto]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:45 AM, Silver Surfer said:

Is there any way to tell from the cert numbers if a book has had a new holder put on it? If not that might be something that they should start track once they sort this out. 

CGC tracks it, the public does nit have access.

Edited December 23, 2023 by drotto

[Nick Furious]

On 12/23/2023 at 10:45 AM, Silver Surfer said:

Is there any way to tell from the cert numbers if a book has had a new holder put on it? If not that might be something that they should start track once they sort this out. 

I think only if the cert numbers predate the label design, which is fairly common.  But that requires having a general idea of both dates. 

[trademarkcomics]

On 12/23/2023 at 8:48 AM, Buzzetta said:

@comicwiz

And Joe, let's also be realistic.  There are many of us that have been around long enough that have seen or heard of certain "doable" scams that we keep them to ourselves so as not to put the information out there for unscrupulous actors to capitalize on them.   These things are not brought into the forefront until they appear to everyone and by then, I do agree that the problems out there are in greater number than the example brought to the light. 

I want to go on record as saying that I do not think that a CGC employer is in cahoots with this.  I think this is gross oversight and something that was exploited during a time period where CGC turn around times were at an all time high, the staff was low and their was pressure for books to be processed and handed out.   Again, I do not think that a CGC grader or employee is perpetrating a scam. 

With that said, anyone who thinks that the dealers and certain collectors do not know the graders, or have even socialized with some of them are deluding themselves.  

 

What would be worse? A rogue employee they can blame it on, or systemic ineptitude? 

Edited December 23, 2023 by trademarkcomics

[Buzzetta]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:40 AM, Nick Furious said:

I'm thinking that a statement would have to quickly follow a thread lock.  As the lock itself would be a kind of statement and admission of awareness/activity. 

If anyone was still keeping track of such a thing somewhere else the current projected final score would be the following if the thread were to close right now as of this writing: 

• Thread Starter_ spidermanbeyond - 5
• Last post - Trademarkcomics +3
• 2nd to last post - Nick Furious +2
• 3rd to last post - drotto +1

Of course this is the type of things that people like for the types of people that like these things. 

[Stefan_W]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:40 AM, Nick Furious said:

I'm thinking that a statement would have to quickly follow a thread lock.  As the lock itself would be a kind of statement and admission of awareness/activity. 

A thread lock could be a self-fulfilling prophecy if this derails into people talking about thread locks and such rather than the actual topic. Once people stop finding new things to say about the actual scam that is being discussed, and once the discussion is taken over by people who dislike CGC to begin with essentially saying they dont like CGC again and again (albeit in different forms), then the thread no longer has value. It can swirl the drain for a while after that, I suppose, but seeing anything nefarious in locking a thread once there is no longer any value in it would be a stretch. Things are useful until they are not. 

[VintageComics]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:37 AM, trademarkcomics said:

On 12/23/2023 at 11:36 AM, VintageComics said:

Some nice closeups of the front and rear, in good lighting would really help identify some of the smaller defects and may make it easier to tell if the book is properly graded. 

The fraying near the staples and the corners indicates it wasn't. 

This is not true, it's stated out of ignorance and it's this sort of speculation that is wholly unproductive.

That's not fraying until we see closer pics. 

That defect is visible on accurately graded books in much higher grades. It often happens on bronze books when a staple is punched into the paper during the publication process and I've seen it on higher NM range books, especially #129's which are rife with staple issues. 

Your post quickly veers off into uncharted territory with no basis, which is the very reason I'm in here trying to moderate the discussion with as little speculation as possible. 

[DWL]

On 12/23/2023 at 9:42 AM, Timed said:

I would agree; no telling what briva3 will do with the book once he gets it back. And CGC may want it to examine. At the same time, eBay requires items be sent back for refunds. Tough situation.

I am joking obviously, but it would be a nice slice of karma if the buyer sent briva3 back a different book  

[sledgehammer]

On 12/23/2023 at 10:48 AM, Buzzetta said:

@comicwiz

And Joe, let's also be realistic.  There are many of us that have been around long enough that have seen or heard of certain "doable" scams that we keep them to ourselves so as not to put the information out there for unscrupulous actors to capitalize on them.   These things are not brought into the forefront until they appear to everyone and by then, I do agree that the problems out there are in greater number than the example brought to the light. 

Shining a light on a substantial avenue for fraud doesn't seem like it should be an issue to me.

[comicwiz]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:48 AM, Buzzetta said:

@comicwiz

And Joe, let's also be realistic.  There are many of us that have been around long enough that have seen or heard of certain "doable" scams that we keep them to ourselves so as not to put the information out there for unscrupulous actors to capitalize on them.   These things are not brought into the forefront until they appear to everyone and by then, I do agree that the problems out there are in greater number than the example brought to the light. 

I want to go on record as saying that I do not think that a CGC employer is in cahoots with this.  I think this is gross oversight and something that was exploited during a time period where CGC turn around times were at an all time high, the staff was low and their was pressure for books to be processed and handed out.   Again, I do not think that a CGC grader or employee is perpetrating a scam. 

With that said, anyone who thinks that the dealers and certain collectors do not know the graders, or have even socialized with some of them are deluding themselves.  

 

That is a good point to raise, because I want to clarify what I mean by posts where I mentioned insider and partial insider. I'm referring to instances where people within CGC were taken advantage of. When the Ewart scandal broke, there were people on both sides - imagine that dealers were defending him after we were showing clear as day before and after pics, that we knew were his books. And the photos of CGC dinners, where CGC folks were shown to be standing next to the pepetrations of the micro-trimming scandal. Sure there were people saying it was preferential treatment to high volume submitters, and there are multiple examples I can think of right now that I'm apprehensive to share that further reinforce this point, which would apply to what you describe as info that can be mined by the unscrupulous types, but suffice it to say that in many of these instances, the loyalties, friendships, and relations found some way to blur that line enough where one of the participants acted on greed, and I'm certain in doing this, there was a sense of betrayal and trust to the party(s) working at CGC. This could be one of those cases, or it might not be. Unfortunately, I've been at this long enough where I should have a better handle on judging people, but I still run into the occassional misjudgement of recognizing the difference between someone wanting help, and someone wanting to help themselves, which links back to the abuse of trust conundrum. This isn't an indictment of any company, entity or person, it's just one of the bleak downsides of sometimes trusting the wrong people. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by comicwiz

[Buzzetta]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:58 AM, VintageComics said:

This is not true, it's stated out of ignorance and it's this sort of speculation that is wholly unproductive...

Your post quickly veers off into uncharted territory with no basis, which is the very reason I'm in here trying to moderate the discussion with as little speculation as possible. 

Everyone STOP damnit !!!!!!!!

Roy is trying to moderate.   

 

[trademarkcomics]

On 12/23/2023 at 8:58 AM, VintageComics said:

This is not true, it's stated out of ignorance and it's this sort of speculation that is wholly unproductive.

That's not fraying until we see closer pics. 

That defect is visible on accurately graded books in much higher grades. It often happens on bronze books when a staple is punched into the paper during the publication process and I've seen it on higher NM range books, especially #129's which are rife with staple issues. 

Your post quickly veers off into uncharted territory with no basis, which is the very reason I'm in here trying to moderate the discussion with as little speculation as possible. 

Whoa. Mole hill meet mountain? I've been grading comics for over 30 years...to me, that's fraying(Just an opinion, no need to take it personal). Peace. 

[mephistopheles]

On 12/23/2023 at 12:37 PM, Mdesimone said:

December 2019, yea that’s my concern since it appears to be reholdered and in his description stated it was never pressed

@comicwiz Any thoughts on his ASM 129?

edit- I skimmed the green/purple 8.0-9.0 at GC and no matches yet.

Edited December 23, 2023 by mephistopheles

[DWL]

On 12/23/2023 at 10:54 AM, Buzzetta said:

If anyone was still keeping track of such a thing somewhere else the current projected final score would be the following if the thread were to close right now as of this writing: 

• Thread Starter_ spidermanbeyond - 5
• Last post - Trademarkcomics +3
• 2nd to last post - Nick Furious +2
• 3rd to last post - drotto +1

Of course this is the type of things that people like for the types of people that like these things. 

POINTS

[comicwiz]

On 12/23/2023 at 12:05 PM, mephistopheles said:

@comicwiz Any thoughts on his ASM 129?

I've just saved the image, I'll need to circle back to this in due time. I had a break the last two days which is something not always afforded to me, but I will come back to some of these that have been shared. I do Appreciate the reminder.

I have something in the works as well that could mean circling back to some of these posts which haven't yet been matched up, so there's been some stuff going on in the background on this for sure.

All that effort will go to trying to pin down more examples, which I'm going to do my best to look through during those few days between Christmas and New Years. 

 

[Mdesimone]

On 12/23/2023 at 12:11 PM, comicwiz said:

I've just saved the image, I'll need to circle back to this in due time. I had a break the last two days which is something not always afforded to me, but I will come back to some of these that have been shared. I do Appreciate the reminder.

I have something in the works as well that could mean circling back to some of these posts which haven't yet been matched up, so there's been some stuff going on in the background on this for sure.

All that effort will go to trying to pin down more examples, which I'm going to do my best to look through during those few days between Christmas and New Years. 

 

 

On 12/23/2023 at 12:05 PM, mephistopheles said:

@comicwiz Any thoughts on his ASM 129?

This is the seller I bought from in Forrest hills

[Tnexus]

Ten bucks says CGC's official response will be to put new certs on all reholders.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Tnexus

[Buzzetta]

On 12/23/2023 at 12:09 PM, DWL said:

POINTS

yer doing it wrong.

"pernts" 

[jcjames]

On 12/23/2023 at 2:15 AM, agamoto said:

Alright, some Briva3/Zaneglor Silverage worthpoint info mining for y'all. (You're going to want to scroll down to the JIM 83, cuz, hoo boy...) 

...

Here are some of the standout silver age books. Do with it what you will. I'm not implying that these are suspect books, but uh, yeah, they might be. 

...

Here's an intersting one... Same book, different cert, different slab, signature series!

JIM 83 6.5 Sig Series 1013080002 Sold Dec 30 2012.

Have a look at this one sold Mar 17 2013. 

Small pics, but look at the Stan Lee sig, the dust shadow in the top right. The stain under the J. It's the same book. How is that possible? Only CGC could crack a sig series, only they could have pressed it, and only they could have given it the higher grade. Someone with a little more time may want to scour the internets for pics restored/qualified and signed Jim 83's. Might be legit. Sure would be a lot of risk for a .5 bump. I'm more impressed with the ability to sell it Dec 30th, submit to CGC, have it pressed and regraded and returned to him in time to have it sold 3 months later. Good work CGC!!!

Avengers #4 Old Label, sold for $5998 Dec 30th, 2012

Another Avengers 4, that looks VERY much like the one above, except with a date stamp added. Sold for $5595 Jul 18, 2012

 

...

Excellent work 

These are just two examples of the extremely troubling evidence/proof that this scam has indeed been going on for well over a decade by this same scammer with extremely key books! 

And this is only what has been found in just a couple days of digging. 

Like I said, this thread has exposed a couple of snowflakes resting on the tip of a very old iceberg that is massive and deep. 

 

[VintageComics]

On 12/23/2023 at 12:03 PM, trademarkcomics said:

Whoa. Mole hill meet mountain? I've been grading comics for over 30 years...to me, that's fraying(Just an opinion, no need to take it personal). Peace. 

Every mountain has to start with a grain of sand first. 

Speculation is where the discussion loses the trail and you start building the wrong mountain. Focus on building the right mountain. 

How can you tell that the book in question is accurately graded and that the area around the staples is not production from a grainy picture when I can't?

If you've been grading for 30 years you should know that ASM #129's are RIFE with staple issues. Here are accurately graded 9.0 #129's with staple issues I quickly pulled off of Heritage. 

Both books have relatively large staple issues. Using your logic, these books would be automatic fails. 

Let's stick to facts. 

https://comics.ha.com/itm/bronze-age-1970-1979-/superhero/the-amazing-spider-man-129-marvel-1974-cgc-vf-nm-90-off-white-to-white-pages/a/122213-17057.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515#

https://comics.ha.com/itm/bronze-age-1970-1979-/superhero/the-amazing-spider-man-129-marvel-1974-cgc-vf-nm-90-white-pages/a/122149-11159.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515#

Edited December 23, 2023 by VintageComics

[DWL]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:17 AM, Buzzetta said:

yer doing it wrong.

"pernts" 

  It has been so long I forgot.  Ah, the "good" ol days