ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[drotto]

On 12/23/2023 at 6:09 PM, Lightning55 said:

 

We've all "concluded" that he removed the original 9.8. But if he was able to cleanly remove the label only from the original legit 9.8, and substitute it for the scam comic's label in that slab, he would now have the legit label with the scam comic. Same as swapping the inner wells. The labels are right at the top, easier to get to. The plastic outer holders are probably identical, so impossible to say which inner parts went where.

Maybe all 3 parts have to have the cert# lasered on. Like cars have VINs in several key places, some locations known only to the manufacturer and law enforcement.

And reholders get all new numbers, with a reference on the registry page to the retired number, for a paper trail. 

Seems reasonable that the certificate number should be on all parts of the case, so label, top and bottom of outer case and inner well. So, it would need to be 4 times.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/23/2023 at 5:24 PM, drotto said:

Seems reasonable that the certificate number should be on all parts of the case, so label, top and bottom of outer case and inner well. So, it would need to be 4 times.

Get some stickers from comiclink's guy.

[Microchip]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:24 AM, drotto said:

Seems reasonable that the certificate number should be on all parts of the case, so label, top and bottom of outer case and inner well. So, it would need to be 4 times.

Having it stamped on the inner well would be a good move.   No serial number, then the the book starts life again as a fresh grading.

[Paul III]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:42 PM, Superman2006 said:

Thanks - I agree with all of that, but I would just add that I think it is highly unlikely the scammer submitted the green label Hulk 181 himself (although anything is possible).

Couldn’t he use the green label to put in an even lower grade qualified Hulk 181 and cover his tracks by submitting greens and blues and mistakes and reholders? Who knows what he has laying around. Turn a qualified 5 into a 7 with a custom label for example. Not a big money maker but I doubt this guy would leave an opportunity on the table.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/23/2023 at 5:27 PM, Microchip said:

Having it stamped on the inner well would be a good move.   No serial number, then the the book starts life again as a fresh grading.

I don't think it turns out that the corners are being glued back in place

I think that your proposal is a great solution.

[bc]

On 12/23/2023 at 6:38 PM, sledgehammer said:

I don't think it turns out that the corners are being glued back in place

I think that your proposal is a great solution.

The QC thread would explode if they started adding more identification points.

I agree it is a solid idea, in practice, but how many more ME issues would it create for CGC to even consider?

-bc

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/23/2023 at 5:38 PM, sledgehammer said:

On 12/23/2023 at 5:27 PM, Microchip said:

Having it stamped on the inner well would be a good move.   No serial number, then the the book starts life again as a fresh grading.

I don't think it turns out that the corners are being glued back in place

I think that your proposal is a great solution.

I've seen this posted several times, which sounds like an ok thought, but I'm curious... Would the stamp need to be small to not obstruct the view of the comic?

Does it matter? Or are we talking a different type seal for the inner well?

[WernerVonDoom]

On 12/23/2023 at 3:27 PM, Microchip said:

Having it stamped on the inner well would be a good move.   No serial number, then the the book starts life again as a fresh grading.

Stamping the number or a sticker on the inner well makes perfect sense.  Fresh grading for every re-holder is much trickier. CGC wouldn't want it because no one would ever re-holder and collectors wouldn't want it because who wants to pay $60 for a potential downgrade on just a re-holder?  Not sure what the best solution is.

Edited December 23, 2023 by WernerVonDoom

[agamoto]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:35 AM, VintageComics said:

How does that prove anything in regards to this thread?

Regrading a book gives you a new certification number. If anything, it disproves the "new label / reholder" theory which keeps the same cert number with the book, which means this book was likely regraded and therefore inspected by CGC. 

It was most likely a resub or a crack and press, which has been going on for as long as CGC has been around. 

It doesn't prove anything, it is what it is, just data. What it demonstrates though is Briva3 sold the book, as a 6.5, to himself or a shill, obviously then sold it again, in a new case, with a new grade 3 months later. Every single one of these shill buys should be investigated by eBay, and this one couldn't be more obvious. It's a hell of a turn around if CGC's doing the press. As someone noted though, it's possible that in 2013 when this occurred, CGC still allowed authorized third-party pressers. You wanna talk about loopholes, jesus murphy that would have been one you could drive a tank through. 

[agamoto]

To those trying to identify who Briva3/Zanglor is, it's not necessary, his identity is known already, but it's being kept from the public until there's some statement from CGC or some kind of investigation or indictment. From my perspective at least, all of this digging is to try and determine how deep the wounds made might be. 

[bc]

On 12/23/2023 at 6:50 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I've seen this posted several times, which sounds like an ok thought, but I'm curious... Would the stamp need to be small to not obstruct the view of the comic?

Does it matter? Or are we talking a different type seal for the inner well?

Don't understand why we want them stamping id#'s anywhere near our books with an industrial machine? They purchase the cases from a supplier and shove a comic and a label on it. Trying to keep track of the entire chain of custody, while a noble idea, is highly impractical for our cherished collectibles. 

Might as well ask them to install a wood chipper near the receiving department to process the excess shipping material.

-bc

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/23/2023 at 5:56 PM, bc said:

Don't understand why we want them stamping id#'s anywhere near our books with an industrial machine? They purchase the cases from a supplier and shove a comic and a label on it. Trying to keep track of the entire chain of custody, while a noble idea, is highly impractical for our cherished collectibles. 

Might as well ask them to install a wood chipper near the receiving department to process the excess shipping material.

-bc

I was thinking of searing anything, and I don't know how it would be applied, which is why I asked questions too

I was more thinking if it will obstruct the view of the comic?

You could always sear or stamp the inner well before the book goes in to be sealed, not sure what you are asking, but in short. "I" certainly don't know

Edited December 24, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[ADAMANTIUM]

I don't see it any different than whatever machine they now use to seal the inner well is my point, but I get where you're coming from now, I had to ask too.

 

[bc]

On 12/23/2023 at 7:02 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I don't see it any different than whatever machine they now use to seal the inner well is my point, but I get where you're coming from now, I had to ask too.

 

Its all good 

When you think about it, CGC's main job is to put the right label with the right book into a slab. The book and the label are 2 unique sub-assemblies that must be matched together for a proper transaction.

What is being discussed is adding 2 more unique sub-assemblies into the equation (inner & outer cases) that need to match both the book and the label. We are doubling the risk for a QC situation.

-bc

[Comics]

On 12/23/2023 at 10:15 AM, Bo1983 said:

Good work!

Thanks!

[agamoto]

Wouldn't it just be far easier to go with a case where the inner well/sleeve includes the label on top so that it can't be removed easily when it's two distinct parts now? An inner well with part of it that extrudes to the side and sticks out when the enclosure is closed, and welded into the outercase when they do the final ultrasonic weld?

It would force CGC to remove any comic from its inner well/sleeve to do any sort of reholdering procedure and they could do a quick page count, image of the book then before reencapsulating.

[bc]

On 12/23/2023 at 7:21 PM, agamoto said:

Wouldn't it just be far easier to go with a case where the inner well/sleeve includes the label on top so that it can't be removed easily when it's two distinct parts now? An inner well with part of it that extrudes to the side and sticks out when the enclosure is closed, and welded into the outercase when they do the final ultrasonic weld?

It would force CGC to remove any comic from its inner well/sleeve to do any sort of reholdering procedure and they could do a quick page count, image of the book then before reencapsulating.

Possible, but that is likely a major re-tooling job from both the fabricator, supplier and integrator perspective.

-bc

[s-dali]

I realize this is a far fetched idea, but how about putting matching microchips with the certification number and possibly a picture of the comic on the inner holder and on the label? They are already taking pictures. The use of microchips is a technology that they could implement very quickly with no retooling of the current case or inner well. Then all that CGC would have to do is to make sure that the the two microchips match and that the inner holder isn't damaged. 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/23/2023 at 5:53 PM, WernerVonDoom said:

Stamping the number or a sticker on the inner well makes perfect sense.  Fresh grading for every re-holder is much trickier. CGC wouldn't want it because no one would ever re-holder and collectors wouldn't want it because who wants to pay $60 for a potential downgrade on just a re-holder?  Not sure what the best solution is.

I think there's room to consider things in the bottom levels. There's only a $35 difference between a max value $1,000 grade and a high value reholder.

Maybe in that tier they only charge you $68 instead of the $50 reholder or $85 grade fee, etc..

You get a discount because it is a book they already graded once.

Now you figure out a better holder for high value books.

Edited December 24, 2023 by sledgehammer

[bc]

On 12/23/2023 at 7:26 PM, s-dali said:

I realize this is a far fetched idea, but how about putting matching microchips with the certification number and possibly a picture of the comic on the inner holder and on the label? They are already taking pictures. The use of microchips is a technology that they could implement very quickly with no retooling of the current case or inner well. Then all that CGC would have to do is to make sure that the the two microchips match and that the inner holder isn't damaged. 

I work at a college and my neighbor develops micro chips for the food industry (cheese and other dairy specifically) - they are insanely small and versatile.

Just go back to the fact that adding more unique metrics (and QC risks) to the transaction is something that management has to consider.

-bc