ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Stefan_W]

There is one thing that is still puzzling to me. I do a lot of crack and resubs and the part I keep getting stuck on is how the person got books in and out of a CGC case without cracking it. Granted, when I open up a case I make no effort to preserve it, but my experience is that cases chip and crack very easily. 

I recall earlier in this discussion that there was mention of a person who once put up a post outlining how to open up a CGC case without cracking it but it was taken down right away. Am I misremembering or is this a real possibility?

It seems like the only ways to make this work are: (1) figuring out how open a case without cracking it, or (2) having a supply of blank cases that can be used (which involves having the equipment to seal them). 

[MisterMR]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:34 AM, Nick Furious said:

Don't take this the wrong way, but it seems like a good time to revisit this question I've always had:  What is it about a 9.4 or 9.6 of this book that makes it so much less acceptable to so many people?  Is it actually the appearance of the book?  Or is more that the ease of obtaining it in those grades limits the desirability?  Or maybe something else altogether?  

Nah, no offense taken at all. I already have a 9.6 but maybe it’s an OCD thing but I want the best possible copy I can afford. It always rankles me a little bit knowing better copies exist that I could afford. 

[MisterMR]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:34 AM, Nick Furious said:

Edited December 24, 2023 by MisterMR
Double post

[Yorick]

On 12/24/2023 at 9:33 AM, paqart said:

I'm missing something here. How does the $4,995 sale for the MJI/9.8 version happen before the $1,450 sale for the 9.2/MJI?

I'm picturing something like this:

Step 1 or 2) Buy "SLAB" (this is the 9.8 slab, with comic)
Step 1 or 2) Buy "INFERIOR" (this is the low grade comic)
Step 3) Swap INFERIOR into SLAB, making "FAKE"
Step 4) Get FAKE graded (must have latest graded date)
Step 5) Sell FAKE (must have latest sale date)

So how is the ASM INFERIOR graded and sold after the FAKE?

Thread is moving too fast to keep up, but your step 2 regarding inferior slabs (and potentially addressing what someone else was asking about a 9.2):  He is resubmitting raw books to have them ENCASED.  These are the raw books that were pulled from Universal that he just wants the label for.  He sends in both raw books and cased books.  He needs sealed inner wells and LABELS, not necessarily high grade.

[agamoto]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:13 AM, Stefan_W said:

There is one thing that is still puzzling to me. I do a lot of crack and resubs and the part I keep getting stuck on is how the person got books in and out of a CGC case without cracking it. Granted, when I open up a case I make no effort to preserve it, but my experience is that cases chip and crack very easily. 

I recall earlier in this discussion that there was mention of a person who once put up a post outlining how to open up a CGC case without cracking it but it was taken down right away. Am I misremembering or is this a real possibility?

It seems like the only ways to make this work are: (1) figuring out how open a case without cracking it, or (2) having a supply of blank cases that can be used (which involves having the equipment to seal them). 

Seems that pulling a label in and out of a case is the more likely process as you'd only need a small opening to do it. Removing the entire comic and inner well and reinserting it into another cracked open case doesn't seem reasonable to me unless he's got specialized equipment to reseal a case or someone's helping from the inside.

[Mr. Spider-Woman]

On 12/24/2023 at 1:07 PM, comicwiz said:

Not directed at anyone, to make anyone feel little, or wrong or incorrect. Just a general statement based on my experiences with reporting transgressions in the past.

feeBay doesn't care. CGC might because of the optics, but there's a likelihood this gets categorized as too stealth for them to procedurally detect reliably, or without frustrating/delaying their current modes of process. I hope I'm wrong, and they take this seriously.

Remedies. I've tried (with mixed results) going the route of reporting fraud by deception through the Office of the Inspector General, and the FTC. I will need to better understand how this all shakes out, and I will say it is going to hurt our ability to get resources on something like this because we aren't the impacted victims here reporting this, although it's reasonable that we assert the position that it's happening in such a stealth manner that it's impossible for the consumer to even understand the nature of the deception, and the down-the-line impacts inevitably hurt us all, in terms of jeopardizing consumer confidence and the overall health of the hobby. 

After I've had a run through of what I hope to do in the coming week, I'm hoping to check back here to see what's developed. However it likely will need to be repackaged for easier, more cogent anaylis by examiners, and I think it will only help if we continue to make more finds, because the scale of this will always be looked at from the monetary damage component to justify the use of any oversight agencies time and resources.

What I'm seeing as the benefit of going in this direction is to put pressure on all involved to recognize the severity of this, and at the very least to hopefully enforce corrective remedies like taking these slabs out of circulation.

I've been wondering about the scale of the scam/fraud/whatever as well, if it involves enough money for the FBI or the FTC to get involved and commit limited resources to.

On 12/24/2023 at 2:13 PM, Stefan_W said:

There is one thing that is still puzzling to me. I do a lot of crack and resubs and the part I keep getting stuck on is how the person got books in and out of a CGC case without cracking it. Granted, when I open up a case I make no effort to preserve it, but my experience is that cases chip and crack very easily. 

I recall earlier in this discussion that there was mention of a person who once put up a post outlining how to open up a CGC case without cracking it but it was taken down right away. Am I misremembering or is this a real possibility?

It seems like the only ways to make this work are: (1) figuring out how open a case without cracking it, or (2) having a supply of blank cases that can be used (which involves having the equipment to seal them). 

The scammer can always claim the holder was broken in transit to cover for any damage caused by forcing it open. And there have been theories floated that the scammer can reseal holders after opening them up.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Any new YouTube videos worth watching?

[Stefan_W]

On 12/24/2023 at 2:26 PM, Mr. Spider-Woman said:

The scammer can always claim the holder was broken in transit to cover for any damage caused by forcing it open. And there have been theories floated that the scammer can reseal holders after opening them up.

True, but the damage from tampering is not really the same what you find when FedEx drops the box. Having said this, what you point out is perfectly plausible if there is nothing in the way of checking the case when it comes back. 

[Yorick]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:25 AM, agamoto said:

into another cracked open case

Not necessarily.  Many options for obtaining UNSEALED exterior cases.

[agamoto]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:32 AM, Yorick said:

Not necessarily.  Many options for obtaining UNSEALED exterior cases.

I dunno, if the dude had access to unsealed cases and the equipment to create the weld on the sides, we'd likely see a far more varied amount of keys than the titles he seems to be sticking to to run the scam, just my opinion.  

[Prince Namor]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:47 PM, migmtl76 said:

Some folks think it could be a woman.

Could he be using a fake name ?

Anywho you can see a reflection in the back of ASM 300 of this individual.

 

 

[agamoto]

It's a MAN baby!

[Yorick]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:44 AM, agamoto said:

I dunno, if the dude had access to unsealed cases and the equipment to create the weld on the sides, we'd likely see a far more varied amount of keys than the titles he seems to be sticking to to run the scam, just my opinion.  

Why?  Stick to the highest numbers of books graded.  How many copies of ASM300 have been graded?  Hulk 181?  Answer = THOUSANDS.

 

A non-cracked sealed case creates a better chance to slip past CGC on a ME.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Yorick
Add'l thought

[comicwiz]

On 12/24/2023 at 2:25 PM, agamoto said:

Seems that pulling a label in and out of a case is the more likely process as you'd only need a small opening to do it. Removing the entire comic and inner well and reinserting it into another cracked open case doesn't seem reasonable to me unless he's got specialized equipment to reseal a case or someone's helping from the inside.

The other possibility - and we'd need some good exhaustive searching for this - but I learned recently about the slab used by AFA for coins being available through a source. That particular channel of submissions for the company may be on a smaller scale in comparison to other submissions, and thus it might not matter. But it would be interesting to see if "cracked" open cases are being put back in play, or whether a fabricator has developed an acrylic/hard plastic reproduction of the outer holder.

We should also not overlook the possibility that if this many reholders are being put in play by a person with the fact patterns we are discovering, that a cracked tamper evident case could be used to force an unwarranted discount on the seller in receipt of the item when it's purchased. This is an angle I've seen with other scams, where bad actors are refining and evolving their tactics with a safety net or offset strategy of blaming the sender, or even possibly the grader, for damage, taking money to cover the cost, then using that to fund their shenanigans. 

[Yorick]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:50 AM, comicwiz said:

whether a fabricator has developed an acrylic/hard plastic reproduction of the outer holder.

if you were on the inside, you'd probably know exactly which company makes the cases.  Order direct.

[VintageComics]

On 12/23/2023 at 6:09 PM, Lightning55 said:

Maybe all 3 parts have to have the cert# lasered on. Like cars have VINs in several key places, some locations known only to the manufacturer and law enforcement.

And reholders get all new numbers, with a reference on the registry page to the retired number, for a paper trail.

This sounds like a logistical nightmare, internally for CGC. Imagine the QC problems if one of the serial numbers goes with the wrong package?

Just spitballing here, but it may be far easier to design a more tamper proof outer slab. 

[Stefan_W]

On 12/24/2023 at 2:50 PM, comicwiz said:

But it would be interesting to see if "cracked" open cases are being put back in play, or whether a fabricator has developed an acrylic/hard plastic reproduction of the outer holder.

 

When I brought up this story to my wife and told her that I was puzzled by how the person got books in and out of cases her response was "they make knock off prada bags that are hard to spot, why is this any different?" That was a big "huh" moment for me, and I started to think of this in terms of sourcing knock off cases instead of wedging books in and out of old ones. 

[BigLeagueCHEW]

So this person is cracking slabs, swapping books, then subbing for the ole “custom label reholder” to fool CGC into thinking this is just a reholder for one, and that is all they want.  Most or all of these auctions have custom labels.

I am leaning towards a sonic welder to swap the book, and either they are really good at cracking the slab and resealing it, they have connections to a supplier, or someone at CGC.

[VintageComics]

On 12/23/2023 at 7:21 PM, agamoto said:

Wouldn't it just be far easier to go with a case where the inner well/sleeve includes the label on top so that it can't be removed easily when it's two distinct parts now? An inner well with part of it that extrudes to the side and sticks out when the enclosure is closed, and welded into the outercase when they do the final ultrasonic weld?

It would force CGC to remove any comic from its inner well/sleeve to do any sort of reholdering procedure and they could do a quick page count, image of the book then before reencapsulating.

Yes.

Barring a better, more tamper resistant OUTER holder, this is a very reasonable solution only it would require an all new outer well and inner well. So a total redesign. 

We'll leave it to the CGC bean counters to factor cost into the possible solutions. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

How many books are we estimating have been compromised? Dozens?  Hundreds?  Thousands?