ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Ride the Tiger]

I would hope CGC does the right thing and not sweep it under the rug. Please just expose this guy and take care of this problem the 1st time. Even if it makes you look bad. You think the auto industry wants to perform recalls on thousands of vehicles? No but they do because it's the right thing to do. I'm sure this person/person's have performed this crime on many lesser value books as experiments. If you don't go after this person you've given a green light for other scammers to do likewise. Don't let your customers down. They helped you get where you are.

[comicwiz]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:00 AM, agamoto said:

Welp, then I'm wasting my time even bothering digging up questionable sales.

Don't look it at that way. Every little bit helps. I'm going to continue to do what I can, my situation depends on the timing of things aligning for me to do more, but there's still stuff in the works. Each discovery gets us closer to understanding what happenened here, and closer to the unsanitized truth. Don't expect that to come from CGC.

Edited December 25, 2023 by comicwiz

[MAR1979]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:00 AM, agamoto said:

People are so addicted to the CGC bump they get from selling their 9.4/9.6/9.8's that they'll never stop throwing money at the machine and CGC will have zero incentive to change. 

yeps, I've been saying pretty much that all thread. 

 

Next Fish-In-A-Barrel Prediction:  Zero response from CGC this current week, the week of  Dec 24, 2023

On 12/22/2023 at 9:38 AM, MAR1979 said:

Fish in Barrel Predictions:

1) ZERO Response From CGC today - Hey @VintageComics the Parent Company does not care about optics and certainly not about supplying a response before this holiday weekend. - PROVEN CORRECT!
2) ZERO Response From CGC EVER regarding this situation - letting it all fizzle out organically represents a tried and true playbook.
3) CGC will do nothing and change nothing with their slabs unless they find a way to increase the Newton Ring occurrences.
4) CGC Apologists will down play everything - PROVEN CORRECT!
5) Peeps will continue to submit comics to CGC unabated
6) Many more will be swindled by this Comic Seller/Dealer who knows how simple it is to exploit CGC process!
7) Other Comic Sellers/Dealers will attempt (and most will succeed) to duplicate the scam - they are Comic Dealers after all!

The only item on above list CGC is concerned with in any manner whatsoever is #5

Unlikely Prediction:

eBay if they see sales trend down in the Graded Comics category as they did with Trading Cards will institute a protection program for slabbed books over a certain dollar amount.

- Who will verify them ? As they already slipped through CGC, it can and will occur again.

- Unlike trading cards in theory they need to be cracked out and verified for completeness. Which is what CGC was paid to do in the first place and often fails at.

 

If I'm wrong my bold-ed predictions then great, however very low odds of that....

 

 

Edited December 25, 2023 by MAR1979

[Donutsdad]

There are several issues that CGC needs to deal with.

1. CGC needs to be fully transparent about what they know and the time frame they were notified or discovered this person had found a possible/probable loophole in the reholdering process.

2. CGC needs to create a way for buyers/sellers to confirm through a CGC search that there is only ONE certification number out for any one particular book.  It's obvious that CGC was not looking at this as a possible fraudulent threat, now they should.

3. CGC needs to create an additional barrier to prevent books from being removed/replaced from their holders. IE any removal of book creates a complete destruction of the slab itself so it cannot be returned and reholdered. Forcing book to be fully graded again and a new shell used.   Label itself should be glued directly onto sleeve AND clamshell so that it would tear if someone tried to remove it, even with solvent or heat. The interior MUST be tamperproof.

4. CGC PR dept needs to go public because NOT doing so, creates a void in information and people who view 3rd party grading, encapsulation negatively will tarnish the process, trust in the grading process and protection of their book and grade itself.  TRUST that this will not happen again will guard against their brand being deminished and creating another layer to protect the book/grade will preserve this relationship between collectors and CGC.

5. CGC must alert local, state and federal authorities as this fraud crosses many lines.  The bad guy should be charged with wire fraud, as well as IRS tax evasion.  EBAY/PAYPAL also needs to be in on this as bank accounts need to be frozen.  

6. All titles and issue numbers need to be pulled from this person submissions and posted to the CGC website so that current owners of the tampered books can have CGC regrade (free) and reholder(free) and shipping free to create new trusts that book is what the label says it is.  ALSO a check needs to be done for anyone doing similar actions, IE reholdering books above some number that would create a red flag. Obviously this person sent in hundreds if not a few thousand books using this process.  Any reholdering request above 1 per month should raise a red flag and person's account should be monitored.

7. CBCS should be looking at this threat (it is a threat to their business model) and then looking at their own clamshells for ways someone can subvert the integrity of book/process//trust. 

[Nick Furious]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:00 AM, agamoto said:

People are so addicted to the CGC bump they get from selling their 9.4/9.6/9.8's that they'll never stop throwing money at the machine

I won't be surprised if this scandal does permanent damage to the 9.8 premium. 

[MAR1979]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:36 AM, Donutsdad said:

There are several issues that CGC needs to deal with.

1. CGC needs to be fully transparent about what they know and the time frame they were notified or discovered this person had found a possible/probable loophole in the reholdering process.

2. CGC needs to create a way for buyers/sellers to confirm through a CGC search that there is only ONE certification number out for any one particular book.  It's obvious that CGC was not looking at this as a possible fraudulent threat, now they should.

3. CGC needs to create an additional barrier to prevent books from being removed/replaced from their holders. IE any removal of book creates a complete destruction of the slab itself so it cannot be returned and reholdered. Forcing book to be fully graded again and a new shell used.   Label itself should be glued directly onto sleeve AND clamshell so that it would tear if someone tried to remove it, even with solvent or heat. The interior MUST be tamperproof.

4. CGC PR dept needs to go public because NOT doing so, creates a void in information and people who view 3rd party grading, encapsulation negatively will tarnish the process, trust in the grading process and protection of their book and grade itself.  TRUST that this will not happen again will guard against their brand being deminished and creating another layer to protect the book/grade will preserve this relationship between collectors and CGC.

5. CGC must alert local, state and federal authorities as this fraud crosses many lines.  The bad guy should be charged with wire fraud, as well as IRS tax evasion.  EBAY/PAYPAL also needs to be in on this as bank accounts need to be frozen.  

6. All titles and issue numbers need to be pulled from this person submissions and posted to the CGC website so that current owners of the tampered books can have CGC regrade (free) and reholder(free) and shipping free to create new trusts that book is what the label says it is.  ALSO a check needs to be done for anyone doing similar actions, IE reholdering books above some number that would create a red flag. Obviously this person sent in hundreds if not a few thousand books using this process.  Any reholdering request above 1 per month should raise a red flag and person's account should be monitored.

7. CBCS should be looking at this threat (it is a threat to their business model) and then looking at their own clamshells for ways someone can subvert the integrity of book/process//trust. 

While you are correct that it should occur, 1-6 ain't never happening.

#5 IRS? The scammer is getting their paypouts from services that report, at least eBay and Paypal do, thus IRS could not care less how the income is made as long as they get every single cent of their money.

As for 7, and as much as it pains for me to say this would not have occurred with their current slabs.

Edited December 25, 2023 by MAR1979

[wombat]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:07 AM, Ride the Tiger said:

I would hope CGC does the right thing and not sweep it under the rug.

CGC preparing their response. 

[AbsoluteCarnage]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:49 AM, wombat said:

CGC preparing their response. 

[MAR1979]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:46 AM, Nick Furious said:

I won't be surprised if this scandal does permanent damage to the 9.8 premium. 

I could definitively see the following books for example taking hits unless they are in a Gen 1 or Gen 2 slab:

ASM 238 All Newsstand versions
ASM 252 All Newsstand versions
ASM 300 All Newsstand versions
Hulk 181 Regular and Mark Jewelers
Hulk 340 All Newsstand versions
New Mutants 98 All Newsstand versions

Feel free to add to above list.

Sadly folks like me who have clean self-submitted books on the list would be hurt as well in event we go to sell.

CGC's parent company has less than zero care with aftermarket sales, unless it's book they can brag about on their Home page like Detective 27 or Amazing Fantasy 15.

It's important to remember this is a pump and dump by Blackstone. IF profits trend down below what ever their already determined threshold they will simply sell off CGC.

Edited December 25, 2023 by MAR1979

[Donutsdad]

On 12/22/2023 at 1:40 PM, agamoto said:

The problem is, there's absolutely no way of knowing how many others out there have also taken advantage of this process flaw in the same way. The bulk of any blame needs to rest at the feet of the company who dares to call themselves Certify Guaranty Company. 

Beg to differ, but no auto company gets sued because some crook figured out how to roll the odometer back. This is a similar intrusion on their best efforts. 

You also have to remember, that the "purp" didn't seem to reseal the clamshell himself after he swapped out the book. He got someone at CGC to probably unknowingly become his pawn. 

Reholdering might become a thing of the past....and with good reason. You want a new clamshell? You get a new grade as well.

[Stefan_W]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:00 AM, agamoto said:

Welp, then I'm wasting my time even bothering digging up questionable sales. People are so addicted to the CGC bump they get from selling their 9.4/9.6/9.8's that they'll never stop throwing money at the machine and CGC will have zero incentive to change. 

I totally get your frustration.

Here is the perspective that I use - Even if 100s of slabbed books have been compromised, there are likely (I have not counted) to be in the hundreds of thousands of 9.8s out there across all graded books. The 119 pages and counting of this thread highlight how important an issue this is for our community in terms of needing ways to identify the fraudulent slabs, and that is a great thing. But I would not expect people's buying behaviour to change outside of being cautious about the types of books that have been targeted (especially 9.8 MJ insert books, but also MVS and Tattooz issues and select rare variants). CGC's reputation will take a bit of a hit, they will have to figure out a way to deal with such scams, and prices on some books will fall, but outside of that things will continue on. 

[Donutsdad]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:54 AM, MAR1979 said:

I could definitively see the following books for example taking hits unless they are in a Gen 1 or Gen 2 slab:

ASM 238
ASM 252
ASM 300
Hulk 181
Hulk 340

Feel free to add to above list.

Sadly folks like me who have clean self-submitted books on the list would be hurt as well in event we go to sell.  CGC's parent company has less than zero care with aftermarket sales, unless it's book they can brag about on their Home page like Detective 27 or Amazing Fantasy 15. It's important to remember this is a pump and dump by Blackstone. IF profits trend down below what ever their already determined threshold they will simply sell off CGC.

Any book whose market price between a 9.6 and a 9.8 is a multiple and census numbers are very high....

Makes the case that many 9.8 cgc universal books will be less sought after unless we know all those certification on the books he submitted.

This kind of fraud would be very tough on anything other than a book with easily visible flaws.  I doubt this would as easy to commit on a silver age/golden age book

Sadly , those that bought these books, are most likely out those monies.  Unless they catch the bad guy.....

 

[Stefan_W]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:55 AM, Donutsdad said:

Beg to differ, but no auto company gets sued because some crook figured out how to roll the odometer back. This is a similar intrusion on their best efforts. 

You also have to remember, that the "purp" didn't seem to reseal the clamshell himself after he swapped out the book. He got someone at CGC to probably unknowingly become his pawn. 

Reholdering might become a thing of the past....and with good reason. You want a new clamshell? You get a new grade as well.

True, but unlike the car example the wrinkle in this story is many of the slabs were sent back to CGC and were thus certified after the tampering. This is the part of the story that CGC has to deal with (likely in the way that you point out), and the part that can come back to bite them. 

[MAR1979]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:55 AM, Donutsdad said:

Beg to differ, but no auto company gets sued because some crook figured out how to roll the odometer back. This is a similar intrusion on their best efforts. 

 

Except in this case the correct metaphor would be; Bad Actor Figured out how to roll the odometer back then sends vehicle back to the auto company where they auto company performs the work of rolling it back. Thus a Civil suit against the Auto Company for gross negligence at the very least, could easily make it into a courtroom.

Of course the Auto Industry is Regulated, Collectible grading is not, thus somewhat apples to oranges.

Edited December 25, 2023 by MAR1979

[Heronext]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:46 AM, Nick Furious said:

I won't be surprised if this scandal does permanent damage to the 9.8 premium. 

Some enterprizing seller/dealer/storefront could set themselves up as the most reliable source for CGC-graded comics, Mark Jeweler variants, slabbed newsstands, what-have-you, by guaranteeing that they send everything that comes through their door into CGC for re-grading/re-holdering/re-certification).  Everything on this hypothetical seller's website is sure to be on the inside what the label says on the outside.  I wish I had the energy and the time.

[Donutsdad]

On 12/25/2023 at 11:07 AM, MAR1979 said:

Except in this case the correct metaphor would be; Bad Actor Figured out how to roll the odometer back then sends vehicle back to the auto company where they auto company performs the work of rolling it back. Thus a Civil suit against the Auto Company for negligence at the very least, could easily make it into a courtroom.

I think you are correct, it's obvious that the "re-holdering" can not remain viable.  Every book that comes in the door needs a brand new grading. 

[comicwiz]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:55 AM, Donutsdad said:

Beg to differ, but no auto company gets sued because some crook figured out how to roll the odometer back. This is a similar intrusion on their best efforts. 

I don't want to get argumentative here, but I strongly beg to differ. This is more akin to an auto manufacturer discovering that the flex hose they equipped a fleet of vehicles malfunctions under certain pressure circumstances, that also disables the sensors on the brakes from funcitoning properly. Rather than issuing a voluntary recall, they put out some obscure form using an alpha-numeric code stating they will cover the repairs up to 15 years should an issue happen, not send a letter or notice to any of the car owners, and when something happens, they blame it on the driver for being negligent and not doing their part to check their brakes, drain and refill their brake fluid every six months. Such a thing actually exists. When have you ever heard a car manufacturer offer a warranty of any kind, for up to 15 years? Just try not to ask me how I know all this.

When we are talking about a "supposed" self-appointed impartial third-party that has a made-up word in their name that functions as a euphanism for "warranty" or some type of guarantee, then you need to use the right comparison, and that needs to be on the level of a fundamental safety flaw that could cause a catastrophic event.

Edited December 25, 2023 by comicwiz

[Donutsdad]

On 12/25/2023 at 11:14 AM, comicwiz said:

I don't want to get argumentative here, but I strongly beg to differe. This is more akin to an auto manufacturer discovering that the flex hose they equipped a fleet of vehicles malfunctions under certain pressure condition, that also disables the sensors on the brakes from funcitoning properly. Rather than issuing a recall, they put out some obscure form stating they will cover the repairs up to 15 years should an issue happen, not send a letter or notice to any of the car owners, and when something happens, they blame it on the driver for being negligent and not doing their part to check their brakes, drain and refil their brake fluid every six months. 

When we are talking about a self-appointed impartial third-party that has a made-up work that functions as a euphanism for "warranty" or some type of guarantee, then you need to use the right comparison, and that needs to be on the level of a fundamental safety flaw that could cause a catastrophic event.

No argument from me...I think the problem is that a simple reholdering is no longer viable.  Every book in the door needs a full grading.

I am not sure if the word "Guarentee" extends beyond identifying the book itself as being original and not a facsimile.  The GRADE part, I don't think TECHNICALLY has to be correct because its being done by a fallable human being.  If the submitter only requested a reholder, CGC might not be liable since they had no obligation to review the grade itself.  Civil liability might still be not warranted ...but I am not a judge...I just sound like one in person...lol

[Donutsdad]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:46 AM, MAR1979 said:

While you are correct that it should occur, 1-6 ain't never happening.

#5 IRS? The scammer is getting their paypouts from services that report, at least eBay and Paypal do, thus IRS could not care less how the income is made as long as they get every single cent of their money.

As for 7, and as much as it pains for me to say this would not have occurred with their current slabs.

I don't quite understand what your last line means...."As for 7..."

How does this not occur?

[Iconic1s]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:19 AM, Donutsdad said:

I think the problem is that a simple reholdering is no longer viable.  Every book in the door needs a full grading.

Man, I sure hope they don’t go this route. I can only speak for myself (as a mostly ‘90ish collector that doesn’t sell anything, and who also despises custom labels).  I’ve had quite a few books reholdered, most were simply so they’d present better, and a few were cracked or mislabeled mechanical errors (nothing big $$).  All for my PC.  I’d never reholder another book if they all had to be regraded.