ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Prince Namor]

I know there's a fair amount of speculation at work here... us old timers call it 'spitballing' and it CAN lead to realizations that haven't been thought of. 

Having said that, and I want to state this is just me 'spitballing', but... can you imagine if it IS a person on the inside? The access that they would possibly have? Even to something as simple as.... LABELS.

Returned labels... pulled labels...

[skybolt]

On 12/25/2023 at 11:33 PM, Prince Namor said:

I know there's a fair amount of speculation at work here... us old timers call it 'spitballing' and it CAN lead to realizations that haven't been thought of. 

Having said that, and I want to state this is just me 'spitballing', but... can you imagine if it IS a person on the inside? The access that they would possibly have? Even to something as simple as.... LABELS.

Returned labels... pulled labels...

It's the worst possible scenario because this person could have dozens of auspicious clients, and there's no way to track all of them and their dealings.

[agamoto]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:28 PM, Mikey C said:

 

 whoops. Just need access to a sonic welder and they’re in business. 

A sonic welder AND the aluminum molds for the case to press the two halves together. The welder is pretty cheap, but the aluminum mold likely is not, but could be milled  by most anyone handy with making such molds  if they have the right gear. This could be part of the process... Inserting an inner well from a lower grade book into a new case, with old 9.8 label, welding in and then washing the laundry sending the case into CGC for a reholder. 

[Pcaedus]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:33 PM, comicwiz said:

Most noticeable characteristics to ascertain exact match, same wrap, same spine ticks, particularly by Wolvie's forearm,non colour-breaking triangular crease on bottom right corner

4206646001 - CGC Qualifed 7.0 - Hulk 181 - Sold May 11, 2023 - $3799.99 (GD: 02/24/2023)

Became

↳ 4209759001 - CGC Universal 8.5 - Hulk 181 - Sold June 12, 2023 - $6900 (GD: 02/28/2023)

Thanks for this. Like others have said the 4 day difference is eye opening. Just what's going in behind the scenes at the cgc? 

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/26/2023 at 4:42 PM, agamoto said:

A sonic welder AND the aluminum molds for the case to press the two halves together. The welder is pretty cheap, but the aluminum mold likely is not, but could be milled  by most anyone handy with making such molds  if they have the right gear. This could be part of the process... Inserting an inner well from a lower grade book into a new case, with old 9.8 label, welding in and then washing the laundry sending the case into CGC for a reholder. 

It's certainly all doable for an enterprising enough criminal in his home garage. But if it's an inside job, the perp has all the specialised gear and supplies he needs, for free.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[agamoto]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:48 PM, Steven Valdez said:

It's certainly all doable for an enterprising enough criminal in his home garage. But if it's an inside job, the perp has everything he needs.... free.

True enough. I'll bet if you know someone who can scan and mill the aluminum mold for ya, your cost of entry in the seal your own CGC case game would be under $10K for the welder and a 1000 cases.

Honestly though, borrowing occams razor from the other guy, all it would take is a much cheaper hand held ultrasonic welder to open one corner near the label, pull the label out, weld open the donor case top corner, slip the 9.8 label in and then smash the corner with a hammer, covering up the mischief and sending in for reholder. 

CGC knows precisely how he's submitting these books, and it's starting to me off that they haven't had anything to say on the subject.

Edited December 26, 2023 by agamoto

[MatterEaterLad]

[skybolt]

On 12/25/2023 at 11:52 PM, agamoto said:

True enough. I'll bet if you know someone who can scan and mill the aluminum mold for ya, your cost of entry in the seal your own CGC case game would be under $10K for the welder and a 1000 cases.

Honestly though, borrowing occams razor from the other guy, all it would take is a much cheaper hand held ultrasonic welder to open one corner near the label, pull the label out, weld open the donor case top corner, slip the 9.8 label in and then smash the corner with a hammer, covering up the mischief and sending in for reholder. 

CGC knows precisely how he's submitting these books, and it's starting to me off that they haven't had anything to say on the subject.

Perhaps they're waiting to meet with representatives from Blackstone first. I doubt we'll get anything until early January.

[Silver Surfer]

Or legal counsel who probably have the police on this too. 

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:03 PM, skybolt said:

Perhaps they're waiting to meet with representatives from Blackstone first. I doubt we'll get anything until early January.

Isn't Blackstone a notorious street gang in Chicago? Maybe I'm thinking of a different Blackstone.

[MatterEaterLad]

On 12/25/2023 at 11:03 PM, skybolt said:

Perhaps they're waiting to meet with representatives from Blackstone first. I doubt we'll get anything until early January.

In June of this year Blackstone hit $1 trillion in assets. That's all CGC is to them, an investment. I don't think they have anything to do with the operations of their assets aside from maybe approving the CEO, or approving board members. Though if CGC's financials were to tank, that's another thing...

[agamoto]

Man oh man, the tech available to make extremely clean cuts into thick polycarbonate with a simple hand-held ultrasonic cutter is pretty amazing. Don't get any ideas!

 

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:21 PM, agamoto said:

Man oh man, the tech available to make extremely clean cuts into thick polycarbonate with a simple hand-held ultrasonic cutter is pretty amazing. Don't get any ideas!

 

This is giving me ideas!!

[Steven Valdez]

Just wondering... I have an X-Men #312 which contains an 8-page Marvel Mart insert. Do people collect mundane ephemera like that, or it it only the Mark Jewelers and Toonz insert that are highly desirable?

[DougC]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:19 PM, Sam T said:

Slabs are either tamper proof or they're not.

On 12/25/2023 at 8:28 PM, Sam T said:

I asked if you had any proof that cracking and resealing is even possible and your response was "well someone said they knew someone who had seen it done at some time". Ya...that ain't evidence of a conspiracy. Yikes...This is getting weird. I'm gonna stop engaging with you because you seem unwilling to discuss what has actually happened and instead you're only willing to discuss the discussion of what MIGHT have happened.

Slabs are not tamper proof, the inner wells are. Which is why what is happening can happen.

I don't know if you are being genuine because you do not want to believe it is happening or some type of CGC cheerleader/apologist intent on running interference to deflect.

It was already posted in this very thread that a well known scammer posted a video on how to crack a slab and switch inner wells (it was removed by CGC) five years ago. Even before that there were pictures of people "perfectly" cracking slabs. At the risk of being banned here are pictures of a slab I cracked three months ago with a butter knife for a SS event (the label was returned to CGC & the inner well was cut to remove the book). I always crack the slab from the top and slide the book out vertically it is 50/50 weather or not the slab will actually crack by the either of the welded posts.

The posts themselves are broken and will always break unless the sonic weld was done improperly or the posts are removed by another sonic weld process (you would break/re-weld the remnants). Luckily superglue (I think all) will show up under a black light to show if posts have been glued back together, I use a black light when looking at higher dollar books and cases when buying at conventions and happily explain why if asked.

Empty slab:

Top two posts broken to remove inner well:

Closed:

Open:

Sides:

 

The reholder step isn't necessary in this scam but will add legitimacy to it with a custom label because we can trust CGC right!... right! The reholder step was only needed for the very specific MJ/newsstand notation so that you can turn $1000 into $10000 with the CGC seal of approval by way of a new label. Why would the scammer do this? Greed. Once someone gets away with doing something the logical part of the brain that should tell you to stop, lay low, or be conservative is no longer present and they often keep pushing the boundaries of what they can get away with until it is pushed to far and they are caught... like what has happened.

 

This has potentially been a problem for a long time and is one of the reason for the new cases/inner wells as they are slightly more difficult to open. In my opinion CGC has been aware of this issue and taken at least baby steps to counter act it, but were hoping that the lid never blew off.

Keep in mind that this is a big deal here, but the average person buying a slab will never know about this like they never new about the spin roll pressing, trimming, or any of the other scams that have happened over the years. CGC has a vast clientele of supporters who need them to make money and will defend them no matter what.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by DougC
spelling

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:49 PM, DougC said:

The posts themselves are broken and will always break unless the sonic weld was done improperly or the posts are removed by another sonic weld process (you would break/re-weld the remnants). Luckily superglue (I think all) will show up under a black light to show if posts have been glued back together, I use a black light when looking at higher dollar books and cases when buying at conventions and happily explain why if asked.

Also, how many collectors or even dealers are examining their cases with a blacklight?

[DougC]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:58 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Also, how many collectors or even dealers are examining their cases with a blacklight?

I can only speak locally for conventions in StL, KC, Nashville, and Louisville area but almost none. I hit a case with a small blacklight and the dealers generally get offended and in one case super angry(below). I explain what I'm looking for and they sometimes take it personally and think that I am accusing them of something most of the time we have polite conversation and they never knew to look.

I have found a handfull of books with posts glued back together; all of them had other slight damage. I simply informed the dealer of a potential issue and only in one single case did a local dealer argue they "fixed" it due to being dropped. Which I do believe as it was only one post and the corner was spider-webbed with cracks so it wasn't like it was being hidden, it just wasn't the right way to go about things.

[VintageComics]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:52 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

On 12/25/2023 at 10:40 PM, sledgehammer said:

Thank you.

Just one more thing and I'll stop pestering you.

Do you think that this statement accurately reflects anything that you, manu or swaggle has ever said during a video?

"They clearly stated this was someone well known in that niche of the hobby (MJ / Newsstand variants)."

Nope, I didn't know who he was until we discovered the ASM 252 photos, 9.9 knew who of him for a few weeks, I think only because of the fact that all those 9.8 MJs hit grailz in November. But I remember checking his IG profile before he made it private and not many people followed him. So overall, some people in the high end book buying community knew him but most people did not know he even existed.

Which all makes sense...why make yourself known to a lot when you're ripping people off

There was a lot of talking, but in the 1st video, 9.9 made it sound like it was someone known in that particular market, when 9.9 said "my post [about the #252 problem] got around, and they [people who are usually vocal about controversy in his circles] shut the **** up, and they didn't say ****, because some people shut the **** up and some people kept their mouth shut...why is that?"...meaning, who knew what?

I'm basically paraphrasing but that's how I remembered it. He made it sound like people in HIS circles knew about this seller and went quiet when the scam broke. That's how I understood it.  

9.9 also went on to say that it might bring a little short term pain but in the long run, it would be better for everyone over all.

That's how I remembered the discussion.

Did I misremember this?

Edited December 26, 2023 by VintageComics

[Book Guy]

A couple of questions:

Are there any logical explanations for the multiple sales on the SAME Book except that the sale was cancelled by the buyer/went unpaid or that the 'sale' was an attempt to drive up the price of the Book, so that next time he sold it or sold another copy the price would be higher?

Has anybody searched in Asia based Auction Services, presuming they exist, for other suspicious sales/sellers? I know you can buy Vintage Guitars on Japanese sales and auction sites so why not CGC comics. Presumably the same opportunity exists in China and the rest of Asia. Alibaba maybe? If there are such venues I am unfamiliar with them.

We are familiar with the MO of switching out lesser copies and have having them reholdered. Not quite on topic but what is to prevent someone from forging whole mint comics and sending them in to CGC or use your Chinese acquired holders, wells, sonic welders and maybe forged facsimiles of legitimate CGC labels and selling the whole enchilada? I know there are holograms on more modern labels but older ones wouldn't have them. Remember those single copies of Gold and Silver keys that someone was selling on eBay earlier this year. They looked pretty good in the photos. If organized crime was involved in any large way, this seems the channel they would use.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Book Guy

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/26/2023 at 6:20 PM, Book Guy said:

A couple of questions:

Are there any logical explanations for the multiple sales on the SAME Book except that the sale was cancelled by the buyer/weent unpaid or that the 'sale' was an attempt to drive up the price of the Book, so that next time he sold it or sold another copy the price would be higher

That indicates shill bidding gone wrong -- where the shill pushes the price up beyond what the next highest bidder was willing to pay. Of course, the shill is only there to jack the price up on behalf of the seller (or he IS the seller), so is not going to pay if he "wins".