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ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC
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Started by spidermanbeyond,

9,030 posts in this topic

VintageComics

VintageComics

Posted
Posted
On 12/26/2023 at 8:46 PM, agamoto said:

Then it's either inconsistency with CGC's procedures, or they only update the graded date when it's a custom label. Who knows at this point, seems to be stuff like changing dates, images in the census and graders notes only get added/changed when it strikes someone's fancy. 

I would say that CGC is not consistent to us on the outside on these things, but internally, they may make sense based on the path the book actually goes through. 

On 12/26/2023 at 8:46 PM, Number 6 said:

On a couple of them the inner well is starting to yellow a bit.  I would think that if I had those reholdered that they would change the inner well as well. 

Any Gen 1 or 2 holder will get an all new holder because they are completely different from the Gen 3 (current) holders. 

On 12/26/2023 at 8:56 PM, paqart said:

How many people on this board have had so much good luck getting 9.8's? From the looks of this, better than 90% of the submissions that were in the running for a high grade were given a 9.8. I sent in 75 moderns and got around 5 9.8's out of the entire group. Also, a lot of these are copper newsstands that aren't well-known for achieving a high grade. Same for Canadians and MJI issues.

There are lots of people that spot raw 9.8s and there always has been. Like anything, some people are just better at it than others and high grade collectors tend to be very picky and train their eyes to spot such things. 

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Nick Furious

Nick Furious

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Posted
On 12/26/2023 at 9:44 PM, VintageComics said:

There are lots of people that spot raw 9.8s and there always has been. Like anything, some people are just better at it than others and high grade collectors tend to be very picky and train their eyes to spot such things

Folks here have trained their eyes to spot 9.2's in 9.8 labels.  

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comicwiz

comicwiz

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On 12/26/2023 at 10:42 PM, agamoto said:

What venue? Not seeing that sale on GoCollect or worthpoint. 

Only 4/2/2023 book I see sold is a 9.2 ASM 194 3977826005

Sold on eBay, mistakenly listed as a 9.6, but is actually a 9.4 ASM 238 - need a good clear pic, and the ones on worthpoint are too blurry

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Steven Valdez

Steven Valdez

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On 12/27/2023 at 7:52 AM, jsilverjanet said:

I haven't read all the posts (I apologize) but what I have read makes me believe that the credibility of books graded by CGC now will give people pause before buying (people will want to inspect the book and the grade to match the label) which is probably a good thing for buyers (they should already be doing that)

This will probably hurt the online seller far more that established dealers at shows

should be interesting to see how CGC repairs this temporary damage

in the long run

 

They should at least offer a free inspection of any potentially suspect book. I would insist that they not use Mr Scammy Insider Guy for this task, however.

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comicwiz

comicwiz

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On 12/26/2023 at 10:49 PM, agamoto said:

@comicwiz

Oh wait, it's a 9.4 238? 

This one sold 4/2/2023, but nothing matching your cert on that day. 

image.thumb.png.4728789ada6f3c0649b7063beb86f639.png

Yes, the photo and label/certificaiton is for a 9.4, but the title of the listing says 9.6. I've noticed a dispairty in dates of about 1 day between worthpoint and other sites, so maybe check 4/1/2023 just in case. But on worthpoint it's April 2, 2023

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darkstar

darkstar

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On 12/26/2023 at 8:37 PM, agamoto said:

Well, I kinda have to question your own speculation then, Darkstar... Was the 238 and the 252 from that submission group sent to CCS for pressing or not? Was a mechanical error detected in those two books and that's why they went back in for regrade/relabel? Is the image we're seeing on the census an image of the book as seen by the graders or not, regardless of when they touched it? I'm all for slowing things down, thinking things through and being rational about all this, but the evidence that we are exposed to is rather overwhelming at this point and it's not like we're making wild assumptions based on a few sales and submissions. We're basing our speculation on HUNDREDS of them with oft repeated incidences as noted and plenty of obvious book-swapping fraud laid bare. 

I think the original 6 book order was re-submitted as mechanical errors. The 238 and 252 were sent to CCS, because they didn't pass inspection and were sent for re-grading, which is why their cert pages have grade dates months later, 7/10, instead of the same date as the rest of the order, 4/12.

If you read the posts in the link below starting with the post by Ramithard on Feb 23 you will see this boardie sent a book in for a mechanical error that ended up going to CCS, even though the boardie didn't request or pay for that service. CGC chose to do that on their own, which ended up delaying the simple mechanical error for months. 


Going back to the 238 and 252 the images on their cert pages likely aren't of the books that were graded 9.8 by CGC. Those books, or more likely the labels, were swapped into lesser grade slabs and then submitted to CGC as reholders or mechanical errors - due to case damage or label error. If at intake the books were deemed to not require re-grading then they were sent off to be slabbed, scanned, and shipped - which means the latest scans on the cert page are of a different book than what was originally graded. There is no way CGC is dedicating the manpower to reholders or MEs to the point that every book is being inspected closely to see that it matches the grade assigned on the slab. So unless it is obvious that the case has been compromised or that the book has incurred additional damage since grading then that book isn't going to be subjected to grading again.  

Your post reads like I don't think there is anything wrong going on here, which is obviously not true. This is definitely a big bowl of fraud, but I don't see how anyone at CGC could be knowingly involved. The sheer volume of books CGC receives, not to mention how many orders the scammer has submitted, pretty much eliminates the possibility that one person at CGC could effectively control all of the fraud books at receiving and then steer them through the entire process while at CGC.

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comicwiz

comicwiz

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On 12/26/2023 at 10:53 PM, agamoto said:

 

@comicwiz

 

I see it.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/amazing-spider-man-238-newsstand-cgc-4627106991 the one you're looking at.

That ad definitely doesn't look like anything Zaneglor/Briva3 posted.

Not finding any 9.4's or 9.6's on gocollect indicating a sale on that date. 

 

 

That's not what I'm wanting the image for, I'm trying to match it to one of his listings.

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paqart

paqart

Posted
Posted
On 12/26/2023 at 10:44 PM, VintageComics said:

I would say that CGC is not consistent to us on the outside on these things, but internally, they may make sense based on the path the book actually goes through. 

Any Gen 1 or 2 holder will get an all new holder because they are completely different from the Gen 3 (current) holders. 

There are lots of people that spot raw 9.8s and there always has been. Like anything, some people are just better at it than others and high grade collectors tend to be very picky and train their eyes to spot such things. 

Fair enough. Also, I wasn't going for 9.8's, I was going for newsstands, then sent in the best versions I had. Newsstands not famous for being 9.8's. 

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