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ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC
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Started by spidermanbeyond,

9,030 posts in this topic

THE_BEYONDER

THE_BEYONDER

Posted
Posted
On 12/29/2023 at 7:58 AM, WolverineX said:

For now, it should just be limited to books that have been reholdered which is a tiny percentage.  Plus they know the scammer's acccount.  This is probably a blessing disguise if it's only one bad actor.  

Unfortunately, as just seen with the 252 posted above…every book has become suspect. 

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CGC Mike

CGC Mike

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On 12/28/2023 at 11:50 PM, migmtl76 said:

@CGC Mike Is CGC sending an email statement to all members or is it only being posted on this forum, Instagram, Facebook and the CGC website ? Thank you

Hi

I have not been informed about any e-blast at this time.  

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WolverineX

WolverineX

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On 12/29/2023 at 8:03 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Unfortunately, as just seen with the 252 posted above…every book has become suspect. 

I don't think that it's as bad as we think.  

Once the scammed book is found,  CGC can go through and tag every book submitted under that submission.  I gut feeling is that this is just one or two bad apples... and all of them can be found with CGC records. If this was happening a lot, it would be been noticed a long time ago....  

 

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THE_BEYONDER

THE_BEYONDER

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On 12/29/2023 at 8:07 AM, WolverineX said:

I don't think that it's as bad as we think.  

Once the scammed book is found,  CGC can go through and tag every book submitted under that submission.  I gut feeling is that this is just one or two bad apples... and all of them can be found with CGC records. If this was happening a lot, it would be been noticed a long time ago....  

 

This scammer has apparently been at it since 2006.

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SpiderParker

SpiderParker

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Posted (edited)
On 12/29/2023 at 2:00 AM, agamoto said:

Then you have to consider just how easy it is to get in and out of the case. I think folks like Dr. Rick are making it appear easier than it is and that hasn't really helped. As he's made clear though, it's just a proof of concept video.

I'm pretty sure that once that sonic weld is busted on the slab, the light refraction properties of that seal go out the window, even with a solvent to the rescue to try and smooth it out. 

I think it literally is that easy to get into the cases.  Go get and look at one of your newer cases.  There is only one 2" or so section that looks sonically welded.  The entire bottom edge is just held in place by the 2 corner posts.  Who knows of they are sonically welded or just snap bit heat definitely makes them come apart with ease as shown in his video.

As part of R&D of the case how is a heat gun / source not part of your research?  Seems like the first logical thing anyone would try if they had ill intentions.  Just seems negligent and lazy on CGC's part.  Part of R&D should be this.  Have a 3rd party or anyone for that matter try to tamper with it and you see the results.  A "real world" test before you release it to the masses.  If someone can tamper with a case and hand it back to you and you can't tell the difference then that's a problem.  

I feel CGC needs to take better action.  They literally have no idea how deep this goes.  They can't just focus on one bad apple and think there aren't any others.  They should immediately stop all holdering until they have a new case design or a new and improved way of sealing their existing case that's been TESTED.  Then release what improvements they've made.   This will literally keep happening forever given the millions of cases out there.  Lastly, they need to have a voluntary recall on their slabbed books.  This will never happen but it needs to happen.  This is like any company that has a defective product doing a recall.  Yeah, it's costly but do you want to acknowledge and give people the opportunity to get rid of the problem or turn your head and keep dealing with this for years to come?  Not everyone would take part in said recall.  If they still own the books they sent in for grading they know they are fine, however if a person ever decides to sell and it's not in the new case then it could hurt the resale value because who k ows how thos will affect the hobby.  This is a horrible situation for CGC to be in but they put themselves in this with lack of security features in their cases.

Edited by SpiderParker
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namisgr

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On 12/29/2023 at 8:08 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

This scammer has apparently been at it since 2006.

He's been selling that long, and given how chock full of information this thread has become I may have missed it, but are there examples of the tampering going back that far, or just the perp's selling?

The opening of outer wells and sliding in and out of inner wells at will seems especially tied to the newest slab iteration.  And the reholdering as a major piece of the scam is also of relatively recent vintage, as new problems such as Newton Rings and lousy quality control have become especially acute only over the past few years.

I'm hoping, anyway, the tampering scheme is a relatively recent phenomenon, or at least the sheer volume of examples will prove to be.

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lostboys

lostboys

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Im not sure why CGC would call in the FBI   ...UNLESS...  someone inside the company is involved.

 

Seems to me that calling the police would be up to the individuals that were scammed by the scammer.

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

I was also thinking about this though:

Does CGC get paid more for reholdering the more expensive books?

If yes then they will have benefited financially from the scam by collecting higher fees than the scammers books were actually worth.

So financially, this scam may actually have made CGC money because of the unnecessary reholders involved in the scam and the inflated fees.

 

Of course, CGC takes the huge loss to their reputation, which, im sure they would never see as an even trade but still...

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CGC Mike

CGC Mike

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I want to remind people that while we do allow criticism, we do not allow promoting our competitors books.  Tread very lightly regarding this.  If I need to issue warnings I will, and they will start at 3 points or more. I have removed about 6 posts in this thread.   Most (possibly all) surrounded a video with a lot of bad language.  Lets move away from the slab comparison between our books and our competitors.

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WolverineX

WolverineX

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On 12/29/2023 at 8:08 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

This scammer has apparently been at it since 2006.

That's okay because every book he has submitted is known. Sounds like they are open to reimbursing anyone who was scammed. 

 

 As long as CGC is transparent with how they fix this, we should be able to survive this problem.  

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THE_BEYONDER

THE_BEYONDER

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On 12/29/2023 at 8:15 AM, namisgr said:

He's been selling that long, and given how chock full of information this thread has become I may have missed it, but are there examples of the tampering going back that far, or just the perp's selling?

The opening of outer wells and sliding in and out of inner wells at will seems especially tied to the newest slab iteration.  And the reholdering as a major piece of the scam is also of relatively recent vintage, as new problems such as Newton Rings and lousy quality control have become especially acute only over the past few years.

I'm hoping, anyway, the tampering scheme is a relatively recent phenomenon, or at least the sheer volume of examples will prove to be.

Hopefully you’re right, and the switcheroo is a relatively recent phenomenon.

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sledgehammer

sledgehammer

Posted
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On 12/29/2023 at 7:31 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:
On 12/29/2023 at 7:15 AM, namisgr said:

He's been selling that long, and given how chock full of information this thread has become I may have missed it, but are there examples of the tampering going back that far, or just the perp's selling?

The opening of outer wells and sliding in and out of inner wells at will seems especially tied to the newest slab iteration.  And the reholdering as a major piece of the scam is also of relatively recent vintage, as new problems such as Newton Rings and lousy quality control have become especially acute only over the past few years.

I'm hoping, anyway, the tampering scheme is a relatively recent phenomenon, or at least the sheer volume of examples will prove to be.

Hopefully you’re right, and the switcheroo is a relatively recent phenomenon.

Someone has mentioned shill bidding evidence from before 2016, but the ebay seller IDs, all tied to this particular radius of NY, seem to have really started around the 2016-17 timeframe.

Latest holder timeframe.

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sledgehammer

sledgehammer

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Posted (edited)
On 12/29/2023 at 7:36 AM, DougC said:

Wasn't there just an example of a switched ASM #129 from 2015 a couple pages back?

The 8.0 was graded in 2015 that was swapped in to a 9.0, graded in 2012, that has a new style label (reholder).

Edited by sledgehammer
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THE_BEYONDER

THE_BEYONDER

Posted
Posted
On 12/29/2023 at 8:35 AM, sledgehammer said:

Someone has mentioned shill bidding evidence from before 2016, but the ebay seller IDs, all tied to this particular radius of NY, seem to have really started around the 2016-17 timeframe.

Latest holder timeframe.

That’s still a long time.  

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THE_BEYONDER

THE_BEYONDER

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/29/2023 at 8:36 AM, DougC said:

Wasn't there just an example of a switched ASM #129 from 2015 a couple pages back?

The actual timing of the switch(reholder) is unknown. I believe the buyer bought it in 2019.

Edited by THE_BEYONDER
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sledgehammer

sledgehammer

Posted
Posted
On 12/29/2023 at 7:42 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:
On 12/29/2023 at 7:36 AM, DougC said:

Wasn't there just an example of a switched ASM #129 from 2015 a couple pages back?

The actual timing of the switch(reholder) is unknown. I believe the buyer bought it in 2019.

I'm not positive, but I think it was heritage 2017, ebay ? twice in 2021.

I'm running out of time to check GPA. Sales meeting this morning.

lol

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lostboys

lostboys

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Posted

 

 

Has CGC ever stated the slabs were tamper proof?

 

Getting a book graded and slabbed is pretty affordable and as the saying goes: "You get what you pay for"

 

What exactly are we asking for here? ...to pay $100+ for a tamper proof slab?

 

I dont think CGC was founded as a comic book flipping company but as a company that would grade and slab your most valuable comics.

 

We kinda turned it into what it is today.

 

 

 

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