ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[jeffreyk]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:17 AM, Mephisto said:

That’s where I am at. I haven’t bought comic books much in the last 15 years. I had been mostly buying art. After selling some art, buying a house, and still having a lot of art to occupy most of the wall space I was looking at adding some CGC comics of books I either had when I was younger or always wanted. Seeing how easy it is for the outer shells to be peeled apart and another well with a different comic slid in I think I’m just going to take a pass since I haven’t really been buying comics much at all for many years.

Around 20 years ago I thought it was kind of ridiculous that the interior wells at the time had the labels inside the top interior well plastic as the comic but the plastic was open at the top so you could just pluck out the labels. Had the labels been sealed along the top edge like the comic it would have made doing the old switcheroo on the old slabs (this may have been the OG labels I am recalling this scenario with) a lot harder. Now it appears it’s just as easy with the label not being housed in the same inner well as the comics. I can’t recall if there was ever a time the label was sealed on all sides of the same interior well plastic that comic was as it’s been so many years. Obviously the inner well is a bit more work to get things in and out of with its seal compared to the outer shell.

So in the 1st and 2nd Gen holders, the labels were at the top of the inner well, but the inner well was not sealed at the top? Interesting.  

[EastEnd1]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:24 AM, Mr. Zipper said:

I take great comfort knowing that the turd that did this had a lousy Christmas and probably hasn't slept in weeks. Even if he doesn't spend a day in jail, his life has been turned upside down and the next few years will be a nightmare of uncertainty and financial ruin.

This is exactly what I've been thinking... he's pretty panicked right now and yes "not sleeping well".  That's why the more he hears about the FBI getting involved, the better.  

[Mdesimone]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:41 AM, EastEnd1 said:

This is exactly what I've been thinking... he's pretty panicked right now and yes "not sleeping well".  That's why the more he hears about the FBI getting involved, the better.  

For all we know he’s working with cgc giving up all the books he sold that were tampered with just so they don’t prosecute him

[agamoto]

On 12/29/2023 at 7:48 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Exactly what my opinion was, that the smoking gun doesn't fall in cgc court specifically, but would prove them culpable.

It could be they have more info, but if they're not victims in all circumstances, then prosecution (if any) would fall short.

It's a small point but worth noting the reality 

Correct, if CGC "investigates" they can't prove anything other than the perp submitted slabs for reholdering that were not the original slabs. They have essentially nothing other than that. They wouldn't be able to prove the perp personally swapped a damn thing before resubbing. A CGC investigation gets them nowhere except possibly a lawsuit in civil court where they might be able to convince a judge or jury with a preponderance of evidence. CGC and it's private investigators have very little to no power to gather the sort of evidence required to lock the guy up for felony criminal fraud. They don't have access to the powers a government investigative body has. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

I wonder if the ASM 252 that started this whole thing was paid for and delivered.

[Mephisto]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:39 AM, jeffreyk said:

So in the 1st and 2nd Gen holders, the labels were at the top of the inner well, but the inner well was not sealed at the top? Interesting.  

From what I recall at least one version was. I’m sure others can remember better or may have more recently cracked some older graded books. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:51 AM, Mephisto said:

From what I recall at least one version was. I’m sure others can remember better or may have more recently cracked some older graded books. 

I don’t recall the inner well ever being open on one side

[pdags]

On 12/29/2023 at 10:53 AM, BlancoBros said:

When CGC starts gets these tampered books back, they should all get a pedigree label, " Mark Jeweler Fooler" 

This would be brilliant.  The only problem is, I would be so tempted to then purchase the original book and swap it back in.  

[shadroch]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:32 AM, Mr. Zipper said:

Nah. That only happens in James Bond movies.  Most criminals are greedy losers who aren't that smart, blow all the money and live week to week. There is no Caribbean escape plan. He's crapping his pants in a dumpy apartment in Queens. 

Ain't too many dumpy apartments in Forest Hills. Or Kew Gardens, either.

[wiparker824]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:12 AM, Imperare said:

Some would say the function of a CGC slab is to assist in the facilitation of a smoother transaction between aftermarket collectors.

The above quoted statement essentially necessitates the impossible task of CGC’s participation in every aftermarket transaction that involves one of their slabs. 

No, it doesn’t. Or at least it wouldn’t if they made a case that couldn’t be cracked, swapped with another book and then sent for reholder. But since they did, yes, all transactions involving those books now require their participation. Which to their credit, they have said in their release they are willing to do. 

[MatterEaterLad]

[Mephisto]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:56 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I don’t recall the inner well ever being open on one side

I stole this from @delekkerste the king of OG slabs.

The yellow highlights I recall being sealed the light blue above the label I don’t recall being sealed.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/29/2023 at 12:23 PM, Mephisto said:

I stole this from @delekkerste the king of OG slabs.

The yellow highlights I recall being sealed the light blue above the label I don’t recall being sealed.

Now I see what you mean.  The inner well wasn’t sealed around the label.

[shadroch]

I'm sorry about this. It seems obvious the scammers are consistently in front of CGC, and one of the main reasons for buying a slabbed book has been rendered obsolete. I can no longer buy a third-party slabbed book and have confidence in what I'm getting.  

I do no know how they solve it, but twenty years' worth of their product now has to be looked at differently. 

[shadroch]

On 12/29/2023 at 10:23 AM, Mephisto said:

I stole this from @delekkerste the king of OG slabs.

The yellow highlights I recall being sealed the light blue above the label I don’t recall being sealed.

I made a thread around 2005 where I spoke of opening up a cracked slab and the inner well not being sealed.   It lasted about ten minutes, and I was warned not to repost it.  The newer slabs supposedly addressed it.  

Scammers have recognized the opportunities in the slabbed comic market.  Lets see how willing CGC's overlords are to protect their investment.   Is paying off X amount of claims cheaper than retooling the process?

Edited December 29, 2023 by shadroch

[grendel013]

On 12/29/2023 at 10:44 AM, Vince G said:

Excuse my ignorance here.  I haven't submitted anything to CGC in the past five years so I'm sure things have changed, but didn't they do a check and possibly regrade a book when it came in for reholdering?  I distinctly recall having conversations with other collectors on the topic of reholdering and some were always hesitant about sending certain books in for reholdering fearing they'd risk receiving lower grades.

Have CGC practices changed?  Or is it true that a reholder never initiated a check on the book in the case?

Thanks, guys.

Was wondering this myself as I submitted two books earlier this year for reholder and was warned about the possibility of a grade drop. Both books were 9.8 White pages but were in the Gen 1 holders and I wanted to upgrade. They both came back 9.8 white so who knows if they were really regraded. Honest opinion is that both books deserve the 9.8. I am pretty sure CGC had to change the inner wells though because I believe I read that the Gen 1 inner well would not work with the new outer well. Sorry this doesn't answer the question but I think we can infer that CGC is not always concerned with regrading when the reholders get backlogged.

[Mephisto]

On 12/29/2023 at 12:30 PM, shadroch said:

I'm sorry about this. It seems obvious the scammers are consistently in front of CGC, and one of the main reasons for buying a slabbed book has been rendered obsolete. I can no longer buy a third-party slabbed book and have confidence in what I'm getting.  

I do no know how they solve it, but twenty years' worth of their product now has to be looked at differently. 

I wouldn’t have said this in the past but I’d actually feel more comfortable not buying a slabbed book especially if it was from someone like Bob Storms. It’s just going to take too much detective work hunting down old photos or hoping the graders notes can prove a book wasn’t swapped. The online scans on CGC just haven’t been around long enough. Buy the book not the label is a good starting point and one I agree with however the issue now does lie in not being able to check the interior. Knowing someone could have swapped out a book with a MVS cut out or even a centerfold missing  is too much of an issue for me at this point. I can’t justify paying a premium on a CGC book only to have to crack it out to make sure it’s complete inside. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Mephisto

[THE_BEYONDER]

The old mantra of “buy the book not the label” no longer applies when green label books are being swapped for blue.  For the 1st time in many moons it seems safer to buy raw Hulk 181s than slabbed ones.

[shadroch]

I'd buy a CGC book from Storms because I know he would have examined the slabs and wouldn't offer anything he had questions about, and I know he'd stand by the sale.  There aren't many others I deal with who I can say about with 100% confidence, which is why CGC captured market share.  I saw a few books in some upcoming auctions, but I think I'll sit out for a while. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by shadroch

[Mephisto]

I just meant if I was going the raw buying route Bob would be at the top of my list. He’d check to see if the MVS was in a Hulk 181, probably do just as good if not better restoration check as any 3rd party grader and every raw book I have ever bought from him has had spot on grading.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Mephisto