ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[CGC Mike]

On 12/30/2023 at 10:10 AM, sledgehammer said:

I've sent Mike everything that I think is relevant.

The e-mail has been sent.

[BigLeagueCHEW]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:53 PM, agamoto said:

They need protocols, and they need to seal the bottom of the case so it’s not easy to pry it open without cracking it. That’s really about it. How they are going to deal with the unknown number of books out there in the wild, who knows.

Seal the label with the book inside the inner well together. Which I thought was done, but never cared to find out. I guess I was wrong for thinking it was.

[HighGrade]

The idea that mass books have been swapped is utter ridiculousness, the holder is ok, it's the process which was exploited. They don't need a new case, BUT they do need to provide video, and announcements on how you can easily spot holder tampering and this will be SUPER embarrassing since the process they used to reholder was fooled.

So they have to talk about and show the security of the current holder, they can't let these wild videos and talk of how easy it is just go, a response is very important.  Any holder can be manipulated but can it be done so it can't be detected? should they improve or add more security? YES, but not do to this current issue.  PSA had holder issues and added more security features but people still buy cards in older holders, you just need to be aware of what to look for.

[BigLeagueCHEW]

On 12/30/2023 at 4:36 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

While I agree that so far no one has posted a video of cracking out a case that doesn't appear to be tampered with, the real issue with most of this isn't that they needed to look completely unmolested.  1 cracked corner or broken side would still resemble shipping /etc damage and allow a book to be resubmitted for ME or reholder.  Which is what is believed to be this specific scammers MO.

Or the ole, “I dropped the book and the corner cracked!” 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:18 PM, HighGrade said:

The idea that mass books have been swapped is utter ridiculousness, the holder is ok, it's the process which was exploited. They don't need a new case, BUT they do need to provide video, and announcements on how you can easily spot holder tampering and this will be SUPER embarrassing since the process they used to reholder was fooled.

So they have to talk about and show the security of the current holder, they can't let these wild videos and talk of how easy it is just go, a response is very important.  Any holder can be manipulated but can it be done so it can't be detected? should they improve or add more security? YES, but not do to this current issue.  PSA had holder issues and added more security features but people still buy cards in older holders, you just need to be aware of what to look for.

I would bet you will be seeing a video response from them sometime early in the new year.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/30/2023 at 7:24 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Most Youtubers will go doom and gloom, but end their videos with "I am sure CGC will do the right thing and restore confidence in the hobby."

Because without CGC they wont get future clicks.

I think your right  

The problem with that thought is proving to the public "that particular safety feature" is now in place, when it is one that should have always been there.

I've heard rumor that for "belief" a lot of people need something they can hold or see with their own eyes, in this case trust will have to be earned back.

You're not wrong and maybe the monetary promise in the "guarantee" will smooth it over somewhat, but having also heard of youtubers, I just don't know if that will suffice. 

no worries I'll stick to posting in this thread @NewWorldOrder Just didn't want my last post in the other of the 3 threads to be a gif

 

[Iconic1s]

On 12/30/2023 at 7:21 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

I would bet you will be seeing a video response from them sometime early in the new year.

Hopefully with the perp in handcuffs 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 12/30/2023 at 7:20 PM, BigLeagueCHEW said:

Or the ole, “I dropped the book and the corner cracked!” 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/30/2023 at 6:46 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

They don't need a Brand New slab (slight enhancement sure), they more so  just need a CGC employee to check and open the book at Reholdering/ME to actually make sure it is the same book.  You know make sure the book actually has a MVS or Mark Jewelers Insert in there.

You can fix this issue in 5 minutes with just a pair of working eyes and someone who can follow basic protocals.

 

Meant to quote this  I know right! It is just not something tangible so Idk if it will be good enough at "their word only" 

We'll see

[mjoeyoung]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:58 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

My issue here is some people here are convinced that the holder is easy to switch out books and that is just moronic.

I think the video demonstrates that a person was able on their first "clumsy" try to easily open the case and reseal it in a "good enough" attempt.  Now take an individual who is determined to defraud.  They practice on dozens of cases.  Create a bench jig to hold the cases in place.  Use a temperature controlled heat gun to find just the right temperature to pop open the case with little plastic malformation.  Use plastic pry tools.  You work on your technique until you are near perfect.  Once you set it all up, it would not be difficult to reproduce the results.  That is the question though: How good are the results?  Were the reholdering workers just careless, or did the scam resealing fool them.

Edited December 31, 2023 by mjoeyoung

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 12/30/2023 at 7:29 PM, mjoeyoung said:

How good are the results?

This is the real question. 

Everyone keeps speculating that it is just so easy to do and be undetectable.  I , for one have doubts it would not be noticeable.  

I am still waiting for someone to post a video and pictures/ scans of books they have done this to that would be hard to tell that they were swapped. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/30/2023 at 7:29 PM, mjoeyoung said:

I think the video demonstrates that a person was able on their first "clumsy" try to easily open the case and reseal it in a "good enough" attempt.  Now take an individual who is determined to defraud.  They practice on dozens of cases.  Create a bench jig to hold the cases in place.  Use a temperature controlled heat gun to find just the right temperature to pop open the case with little plastic malformation.  Use plastic pry tools.  You work on your technique until you are near perfect.  Once you set it all up, it would not be difficult to reproduce the results.  That is the question though: How good are the results?  Were the reholdering workers just careless, or did the scam resealing fool them.

 

On 12/30/2023 at 7:38 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

This is the real question. 

Everyone keeps speculating that it is just so easy to do and be undetectable.  I , for one have doubts it would not be noticeable.  

I am still waiting for someone to post a video and pictures/ scans of books they have done this to that would be hard to tell that they were swapped. 

Exactly. If he was so good at it? why was he then sending to CGC for a reholder, it and the greedy high sales is what got him caught.

I think you're confusing swapping within the tamperproof case that it fooled the "eyes of whoever worked at CGC" 

But did he do that for his own good health? and repeatedly? that it ended up getting him caught due to CGC scanning the book?

That doesn't make sense at all

[ADAMANTIUM]

I don't think he was resealing well enough to pass anyone, (except the lax employee at CGC, which is @NewWorldOrder point.

As for the processes That CGC has already "fixed?" 

I'm sure it sounded a lot like this 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:29 PM, mjoeyoung said:

I think the video demonstrates that a person was able on their first "clumsy" try to easily open the case and reseal it in a "good enough" attempt.  Now take an individual who is determined to defraud.  They practice on dozens of cases.  Create a bench jig to hold the cases in place.  Use a temperature controlled heat gun to find just the right temperature to pop open the case with little plastic malformation.  Use plastic pry tools.  You work on your technique until you are near perfect.  Once you set it all up, it would not be difficult to reproduce the results.  That is the question though: How good are the results?  Were the reholdering workers just careless, or did the scam resealing fool them.

The video still proves it was clearly tampered with.  The scammer from what is known so far only profited from CGC's lack or basic protocols at the office. Not because they switch out the book and CGC never touch the book.

They don't need a Brand New slab (slight enhancement sure), they more so just need a CGC employee to check and open the book at Reholdering/ME to actually make sure it is the same book.  You know make sure the book actually has a MVS or Mark Jewelers Insert in there.

You can fix this issue in 5 minutes with just a pair of working eyes and someone who can follow basic protocols.

You can just look up the graders notes as well for FREE at all times.

[wombat]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:49 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Exactly. If he was so good at it? why was he then sending to CGC for a reholder, it and the greedy high sales is what got him caught.

Why wasn't CGC catching the tampered case? 

[ADAMANTIUM]

That sounded a lot more brash than I meant it  

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/30/2023 at 6:46 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

They don't need a Brand New slab (slight enhancement sure), they more so  just need a CGC employee to check and open the book at Reholdering/ME to actually make sure it is the same book.  You know make sure the book actually has a MVS or Mark Jewelers Insert in there.

You can fix this issue in 5 minutes with just a pair of working eyes and someone who can follow basic protocals.

 

 

On 12/30/2023 at 7:29 PM, mjoeyoung said:

I think the video demonstrates that a person was able on their first "clumsy" try to easily open the case and reseal it in a "good enough" attempt.  Now take an individual who is determined to defraud.  They practice on dozens of cases.  Create a bench jig to hold the cases in place.  Use a temperature controlled heat gun to find just the right temperature to pop open the case with little plastic malformation.  Use plastic pry tools.  You work on your technique until you are near perfect.  Once you set it all up, it would not be difficult to reproduce the results.  That is the question though: How good are the results?  Were the reholdering workers just careless, or did the scam resealing fool them.

 

On 12/30/2023 at 7:52 PM, wombat said:

Why wasn't CGC catching the tampered case? 

This is the conversation I thought we were having

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:52 PM, wombat said:

Why wasn't CGC catching the tampered case? 

The case is irrelevant when it gets to CGC, the real question is the book and the label that comes with it.

Sometimes I dont even send in the case when I need a reholder to save on weight costs.  I smash it and just send the inner well and the label.

[wombat]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:54 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

On 12/30/2023 at 8:52 PM, wombat said:

Why wasn't CGC catching the tampered case? 

This is the conversation I thought we were having

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying. 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 12/30/2023 at 7:52 PM, wombat said:

Why wasn't CGC catching the tampered case? 

Personally I don't think it was looked at as possible tamper. 

I believe most of these were slid in under the guise of a damaged holder for ME / Reholder. And by sending them in that way got the quick path to a speed cursory check that label and inner well appears intact and straight to the new label and encapsulating stage. Which is what a lot of members here have stated a few times in this thread.