ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/31/2023 at 4:38 PM, Lightning55 said:

If CGC can show any markers, evidence of tampering on a case, they are off the hook. They don't warrant the case to be tamper proof, just tamper evident.

If it has been altered (and CGC wasn't involved in the altering, an example being a direct swap and reseal by a scammer), that's not on them, no liability. And so they cover only the alleged CGC-aided swaps, possibly occurring during the reholder process. 

Bear in mind that CGC collectors make up a minority of comics collected worldwide, raw comics still prevailing. Of those, an even greater minority collected are 4-5 figure CGC comics. When talking about the number of units, it is a thin sliver of the market.

That's true. But even if it's not directly 'on them', it's going to seriously dent CGC's reputation now that all of the slabs already out there are under suspicion. Book laundering is most likely happening all the time now that it's been shown how to easily do it. Comic dealing has always been rife with unethical individuals, and they'll be having a field day right now.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[William-James88]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:18 PM, HighGrade said:

The idea that mass books have been swapped is utter ridiculousness, the holder is ok, it's the process which was exploited. They don't need a new case, BUT they do need to provide video, and announcements on how you can easily spot holder tampering and this will be SUPER embarrassing since the process they used to reholder was fooled.

So they have to talk about and show the security of the current holder, they can't let these wild videos and talk of how easy it is just go, a response is very important.  Any holder can be manipulated but can it be done so it can't be detected? should they improve or add more security? YES, but not do to this current issue.  PSA had holder issues and added more security features but people still buy cards in older holders, you just need to be aware of what to look for.

It's not talked about as much but another thing that was exploited was CGC's own awareness of their incompetence. 

If they didn't make the ton of errors they routinely do on slabs, like not labeling a Mark Jeweler variant, then a request for a reholder due to a gaff on their part would have been scrutinized more. 

[Lightning55]

On 12/31/2023 at 12:43 AM, Steven Valdez said:

That's true. But even if it's not directly 'on them', it's going to seriously dent CGC's reputation now that all of the slabs already out there are under suspicion. Book laundering is most likely happening all the time now that it's been shown how to easily do it.

That's true, possibly, as it stands now.

But it's way too early to speculate that there won't be a development that makes it possible to determine that cases have been compromised. CGC has to examine these cases to find out how they resealed them so well, and if it was actually accomplished, or just overlooked, not enough scrutiny. 

[drotto]

On 12/31/2023 at 12:38 AM, Lightning55 said:

If CGC can show any markers, evidence of tampering on a case, they are off the hook. They don't warrant the case to be tamper proof, just tamper evident.

If it has been altered (and CGC wasn't involved in the altering, an example being a direct swap and reseal by a scammer), that's not on them, no liability. And so they cover only the alleged CGC-aided swaps, possibly occurring during the reholder process. 

Bear in mind that CGC collectors make up a minority of comics collected worldwide, raw comics still prevailing. Of those, an even greater minority collected are 4-5 figure CGC comics. When talking about the number of units, it is a thin sliver of the market.

-Agree, the cases are designed to be tamper evident, as such the reholder process needs to be changed that all cases with any visible damage need to be treated as raw if normal damage can not be reliably differentiated from tampering. Therefor, all reholders need to be reverified and regraded.

- I think CGC is not completely off the hook.  When you read the fine print, the only thing they truly guarantee is the book is authentic, and two people have evaluated the book. So they have a responsibility to verify any book that passes through their hands is what the book appears to be.  During the reholder submission, if there is any issues with the case, they therefore have a responsibility to again verify the book is authentic. That includes making sure the MVS is present, is it a real MJI, the book is complete, etc. In addition, if they are changing the label, they must verify the changes are authentic. By missing those items, you could argue the book is not authentic. So they failed their legal statement. This does not include the grade (unfortunately).  

-Yes, the majority of comics are still raw.  However, with grails, and big money books it seems like the majority that change hands at this point seem to be graded.  Its hard to avoid, if you trade in high end books.

Edited December 31, 2023 by drotto

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/31/2023 at 4:52 PM, Lightning55 said:

That's true, possibly, as it stands now.

But it's way too early to speculate that there won't be a development that makes it possible to determine that cases have been compromised. CGC has to examine these cases to find out how they resealed them so well, and if it was actually accomplished, or just overlooked, not enough scrutiny. 

If that does happen -- a way to determine if cases have been compromised -- that really is the only thing that could salvage the whole mess.

[William-James88]

On 12/31/2023 at 12:38 AM, Lightning55 said:

 

Bear in mind that CGC collectors make up a minority of comics collected worldwide, raw comics still prevailing. Of those, an even greater minority collected are 4-5 figure CGC comics. When talking about the number of units, it is a thin sliver of the market.

If you look at amount of comics (units),  that may be so, but market (and market share) is measured in dollars. Since all high priced books are CGC'd now when sold through auction houses, they tip the scales unevenly leaving us with the fact that the majority of money in the collectible comic market is spent on CGC comics.

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/31/2023 at 4:53 PM, drotto said:

 -Yes, the majority of comics are still raw.  However, with grails, and big money books it seems like the majority that change hands at this point seem to be graded.  Its hard to avoid, if you trade in high end books.

If reliable, trustworthy, competently graded slabs were available, I'd be a lot more comfortable buying expensive books from the other side of the world. Will wait for that day to dawn.

[Lightning55]

CGC is definitely on the hook for anything they reholdered after initial grading, and this can be tracked.

Probably not on the hook for any original submission that left their facility and was later swapped. Maybe unless someone could absolutely prove the case could be altered with no sign of tampering, defeating their tamper-evident claim.

[drotto]

On 12/31/2023 at 12:51 AM, William-James88 said:

It's not talked about as much but another thing that was exploited was CGC's own awareness of their incompetence. 

If they didn't make the ton of errors they routinely do on slabs, like not labeling a Mark Jeweler variant, then a request for a reholder due to a gaff on their part would have been scrutinized more. 

I agree 100%. CGC should have been far more aware of their own weaknesses, and should have been trying to correct the QC issues that have been obvious for some time.  At the same time I can see how they would have been blind to the sheer audacity that it took for somebody to be submitting fraudulent books to them, containing easy to spot items (unlike the micro-trimming scandal which would have been far easier to miss). Sometimes, the easiest mistake to miss is the one staring us in the face. The are the "experts" it should have been noticed, but sorta get how it would be missed, because just who would do that. 

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/31/2023 at 4:58 PM, William-James88 said:

If you look at amount of comics (units),  that may be so, but market (and market share) is measured in dollars. Since all high priced books are CGC'd now when sold through auction houses, they tip the scales unevenly leaving us with the fact that the majority of money in the collectible comic market is spent on CGC comics.

Yes... the kinds of books I'm looking for (early Marvels) are almost always slabbed. The ones that aren't look like they've been pulled out of a storm water drain despite being described as 'good' or better.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[wombat]

On 12/31/2023 at 1:03 AM, drotto said:

Sometimes, the easiest mistake to miss is the one staring us in the face. The are the "experts" it should have been noticed, but sorta get how it would be missed, because just who would do that. 

These are the same people that send out books upside down. Or backwards. Or in the completely wrong slab. They didn't miss this because it was "too shocking" to consider. 

[drotto]

On 12/31/2023 at 1:04 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Yes... the kinds of books I'm looking for (early Marvels) are almost always slabbed. The ones that aren't look like they've been pulled out of a storm water drain.

Same issue for me, I collect mainly SA and BA Marvel, and dabble in GA.  If I am going to by any keys in those areas, the majority are graded at this point.  The books on my want list now are things like GA Batman, Hulk 1, ASM 1, AF 15, and SA X-Men (some of these are easier to find raw).  While raws do come up on occasion, the vast majority of these types of books are slabbed. 

[drotto]

On 12/31/2023 at 1:08 AM, wombat said:

These are the same people that send out books upside down. Or backwards. Or in the completely wrong slab. They didn't miss this because it was "too shocking" to consider. 

There was certainly a high degree of incompetence and arrogance. I am firmly on record in saying they should have noticed this, but can see how CGC is being run they they would never have considered it a possibility. 

[Lightning55]

On 12/31/2023 at 12:58 AM, William-James88 said:

If you look at amount of comics (units),  that may be so, but market (and market share) is measured in dollars. Since all high priced books are CGC'd now when sold through auction houses, they tip the scales unevenly leaving us with the fact that the majority of money in the collectible comic market is spent on CGC comics.

Also true. But the scam comics, compared to all CGC comics is again a micro-sliver of those traded. Think of all the titles, the different eras, it's enormous. But the scam comic issues in play are likely a few targeted issues over and over. The CGC-enabled copies are the ones CGC is responsible for.

If someone can prove that the case is not tamper-evident, that would open them up to more claims. But until such an example is unearthed, CGC has no involvement in those direct swap and reseal comics. 

We have to see how things play out, but I am sure there will be a shortage of patience. I would like to see something soon, because following this thread is a full time job. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Lightning55

[Iconic1s]

On 12/30/2023 at 11:57 PM, Steven Valdez said:

If that does happen -- a way to determine if cases have been compromised -- that really is the only thing that could salvage the whole mess.

I wonder if there is a way to infuse the case with something that, if exposed to extreme heat (such as from a heat gun) or certain chemicals, that the plastic would permanently discolor?

[drotto]

On 12/31/2023 at 1:20 AM, Lightning55 said:

Also true. But the scam comics, compared to all CGC comics is again a micro-sliver of those traded. Think of all the titles, the different eras, it's enormous. But the scam comic issues in play is likely a few targeted issues over and over. The CGC-enabled copies are the ones CGC is responsible for.

If someone can prove that the case is not tamper-evident, that would open them up to more claims. But until such an example is unearthed, CGC has no involvement in those direct swap and reseal comics. 

We have to see how things play out, but I am sure there will be a shortage of patience. I would like to see something soon, because following this thread is a full time job. 

All true. I really hope it stays this way, but the books found so far are all high volume, high census, BA and CA books, with desired variants, or frequent issues resulting in qualified labels. There is a fairly clear pattern.  

The biggest issue with the case at this moment is not that it fails to show damage (even the crack case video did damage the case), but if that CGC can not tell if that damage is "natural" or fruadulent. CGC has to admit they can't tell the difference. 

[EastEnd1]

On 12/31/2023 at 12:52 AM, Lightning55 said:

That's true, possibly, as it stands now.

But it's way too early to speculate that there won't be a development that makes it possible to determine that cases have been compromised. CGC has to examine these cases to find out how they resealed them so well, and if it was actually accomplished, or just overlooked, not enough scrutiny. 

We don't know yet what this culprit did exactly... I don't think all of his hundreds of submissions could have been MEs as that would have attracted attention (CGC pre-approves those as it costs them money)... so he either swapped and resealed some or someone on the inside helped him.  If it's the former, then clearly he's able to do it without creating any obvious defect (though a careful inspection might reveal something).  If you go back to the chemists video, it's pretty clear on that second pin that it's very easy to pop the pin by merely heating it up with a heat gun... quick, simple, and no cracking at all.  He demonstrates that you only need to pop ONE bottom pin from the newest holders to get the original book out and a substitute in.  The chemist also points out that any minute scratches or blemishes from the effort can be eliminated by using tape, polishes and other solutions.  This all from one quick early attempt.  With practice, the result will get better.  He did mention however that there was one "tell" in his effort... the bottom pins at the back of the holder became slightly larger than the top pins from the heating and pulling.  So if heating and pulling is "a must" for this scam, that currently seems to be one indicator... at least until someone figures that out.  For those "in the know", I guess enlarged bottom pins is something to look for.  But for the majority of transactions, this won't be a good stopgap... too many purchasers will not be "in the know" and two slightly enlarged pins is simply not obvious enough.  CGC is going to need a new holder that doesn't open so easily with a a simple application of heat.  I expect we'll be seeing that.  What happens with the 8 million heat susceptible holders already out there, God only knows.

[Luke Baker]

In the grand scheme of things at this point ANY book that has been reholdered needs to come into question. What stops anyone from turning a quick buck over and over again by swapping 9.8s for 9.6s over and over again. The system is flawed, the cases are flawed and ANY book that has been reholdered is at risk. And to be honest it DOES extend further than that, what has been stopping anyone for 10+ years with a heat gun, a putty knife, some tweezers, and some clear sealant to continuously flip 9.4s or 9.6s into 9.8 holders over and over again?

Edited December 31, 2023 by Luke Baker

[drotto]

On 12/31/2023 at 1:29 AM, EastEnd1 said:

We don't know yet what this culprit did exactly... I don't think all of his hundreds of submissions could have been MEs as that would have attracted attention (CGC pre-approves those as it costs them money)... so he either swapped and resealed some or someone on the inside helped him.  If it's the former, then clearly he's able to do it without creating any obvious defect (though a careful inspection might reveal something).  If you go back to the chemists video, it's pretty clear on that second pin that it's very easy to pop the pin by merely heating it up with a heat gun... quick, simple, and no cracking at all.  He demonstrates that you only need to pop ONE bottom pin from the newest holders to get the original book out and a substitute in.  The chemist also points out that any minute scratches or blemishes from the effort can be eliminated by using tape, polishes and other solutions.  This all from one quick early attempt.  With practice, the result will get better.  He did mention however that there was one "tell" in his effort... the bottom pins at the back of the holder became slightly larger than the top pins from the heating and pulling.  So if heating and pulling is "a must" for this scam, that currently seems to be one indicator... at least until someone figures that out.  For those "in the know", I guess enlarged bottom pins is something to look for.  But for the majority of transactions, this won't be a good stopgap... too many purchasers will not be "in the know" and two slightly enlarged pins is simply not obvious enough.  CGC is going to need a new holder that doesn't open so easily with a a simple application of heat.  I expect we'll be seeing that.  What happens with the 8 million heat susceptible holders already out there, God only knows.

In the second video, where he opens the competion's clip design, he appeared to have much more trouble, and it seemed to require more skill. Now, I 100% think that with practice you could get these open almost perfectly also, but it looked harder. 

So no case is ever going to be perfect.  The best we can hope for is a desig that will break with any attempt to open. Then if the case is broken the rule must be the comic is now considered raw, period.

[Lightning55]

On 12/31/2023 at 1:27 AM, drotto said:

The biggest issue with the case at this moment is not that it fails to show damage (even the crack case video did damage the case), but if that CGC can not tell if that damage is "natural" or fruadulent. CGC has to admit they can't tell the difference. 

This, for sure. Every case coming in for reholder has to be treated as suspect.

On either reholder or ME, you have to put a Declared Value on the form. I would first check that the DV indicated is correct for the comic, quick lookup at GPA. And the higher that DV is, the more carefully I am looking at it.

Only $150? Cursory check that it is in the same condition as the grade states, maybe 2 people have to agree. Also checking against lists of target fraud comics - inserts, MVS candidates, etc. Anything suspicious, it's detoured to the graders.

Over X dollar amount, automatic trip to the graders to at least be re-authenticated, if not completely regraded.