ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Buzzetta]

On 1/3/2024 at 11:37 PM, wiparker824 said:

Yeah I see now that it was signed on the back cover. I didn’t previously see that, makes a lot more sense now that they forged the back cover signature. 

Doesn't necessarily have to be forged.  Stan would sign his name and the year on the interior and back cover before CGC had a signature series.  My ASM is signed on the top of the front cover in ballpoint pen with the words Stan Lee 1979 at the top.  I picked that up before CGC was grading things.   I am confident it is real. 

[wiparker824]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:40 PM, Buzzetta said:

Doesn't necessarily have to be forged.  Stan would sign his name and the year on the interior and back cover before CGC had a signature series.  My ASM is signed on the top of the front cover in ballpoint pen with the words Stan Lee 1979 at the top.  I picked that up before CGC was grading things.   I am confident it is real. 

Yeah I believe the one on the interior is most likely real or if forged it was done many years ago, but probably real just unwitnessed. The one on the back cover, if this book is fraudulent is likely the forged signature. 

Edited January 4 by wiparker824

[mycomicshop]

Good to see CGC releasing the list. We will be reviewing our current inventory and previous sales against the list and taking appropriate action as needed. Kudos to @COMICLINK for a great response, we will be taking similar steps. 

[Kripsys99]

On 1/3/2024 at 5:45 PM, Dark Knight said:

CGC has just made a new announcement. Anyways, here is a link to some books that were affected with the switcheroo. 

CGC announcement

As suspected, us DC collectors are in the clear! (Except whoever bought that 2004 Superman issue).

[comeaux]

On 1/3/2024 at 4:45 PM, Dark Knight said:

CGC has just made a new announcement. Anyways, here is a link to some books that were affected with the switcheroo. 

CGC announcement

CGC  released this list so they should obviously know who the scammer(s) are, why not release the name(s) to protect the community? 

Inside job 

[gmasstermcd]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:13 AM, comeaux said:

CGC  released this list so they should obviously know who the scammer(s) are, why not release the name(s) to protect the community? 

Inside job 

Inside job might explain why there is such a huge percentage of books on the list with graders notes. Maybe it was a precaution in case someone noticed you could point to the notes and say ya look there was indication of some flaws on these 9.8s

[LordRahl]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:13 PM, comeaux said:

CGC  released this list so they should obviously know who the scammer(s) are, why not release the name(s) to protect the community? 

Inside job 

More than likely that is on advice from their lawyers.

[sledgehammer]

On 1/3/2024 at 5:00 PM, Dark Knight said:

I believe so. Still an ongoing investigation and I'm sure more books will be added to the current list periodically. 

No, I'm pretty sure that comiclink has confirmed that this is THE list, and that it will be shrinking as quickly as humanly possible.

[Lightning55]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:23 AM, sledgehammer said:

No, I'm pretty sure that comiclink has confirmed that this is THE list, and that it will be shrinking as quickly as humanly possible.

The announcement also allowed for the possibility of more books, since no one can be certain that there are not undiscovered swapped books out there:

"If you have any questions, or if you believe you have a tampered book that is not on our list, please reach out to us at ReportFraud@CollectiblesGroup.com."

I suspect that the list will be "fluid" in both directions. CGC did not say it was an exhaustive list.

[wiparker824]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:21 PM, gmasstermcd said:

I have about 60 9.8 slabs from CGC none have a single note with various grading dates and I think before today I have only seen 1 9.8 universal label with a graders note. Anyways I checked all the ASM 194's I counted 55 9.8's and  37 of them have notes and many of them seem very generous to get a 9.8. Seems like a crazy high percentage, and if it is as you say that means CGC has graders notes that they just don't put on the website and keep them internal for no reason what-so-ever. 9.8's don't even really need graders notes the most important grade for needing graders notes IMO is 9.6 so you at least know why it's not a 9.8.

This is indeed the real scam. I can’t even get notes on a 9.0 consistently this person is getting notes on 9.8’s???

[BrashL]

On 1/3/2024 at 11:46 PM, wiparker824 said:

This is indeed the real scam. I can’t even get notes on a 9.0 consistently this person is getting notes on 9.8’s???

If this doesn’t at least lead to graded notes on every slab….man what are we even doing?  After all this how can anything else be adequate. And yes, even 9.8s have flaws.  

[comeaux]

On 1/3/2024 at 8:41 PM, BrashL said:

" Ineligible books will be moved to the appropriate service and the submitter will be responsible for any fees."

So what does this mean? It's incumbent upon CGC to share how this happened and how this list was put together so folks can start looking at their books which may still need to be added and might be "eligible". This list is a good start but without any  context it's still far from adequate...

Also new cases

All of these scammed books will remain a 9.8 and only way anyone knows different is if they crack it open to find a qualified 8.0 with MVS missing. CGC will then say they missed it. 

Also who are the scammers? 

[MyNameIsLegion]

What about all the eBay sales that @comicwiz has been tracking? Wouldn’t all books sold by the fraudster be suspect? CGC only directly know which books were submitted to them directly. But it’s just as conceivable that he swapped books and sold them without laundering them to CGC. In fact the ones he sent to CGC might have just been the ones he couldn’t pass off or he just needed to prime the pump to get more cases and books to swap out. The contagion extends to all books he touched that were slabbed. 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 1/3/2024 at 10:21 PM, gmasstermcd said:

I have about 60 9.8 slabs from CGC none have a single note with various grading dates and I think before today I have only seen 1 9.8 universal label with a graders note. Anyways I checked all the ASM 194's I counted 55 9.8's and  37 of them have notes and many of them seem very generous to get a 9.8. Seems like a crazy high percentage, and if it is as you say that means CGC has graders notes that they just don't put on the website and keep them internal for no reason what-so-ever. 9.8's don't even really need graders notes the most important grade for needing graders notes IMO is 9.6 so you at least know why it's not a 9.8.

I know if I dig more into my submissions I can find more examples, but here is one of the submissions where I had graders notes on all 8 books including the 9.8s.

Spoiler

 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

Do not get the above post wrong. MOST of my submissions I wish there were  notes as I have had some books that were as low as 8.0 with zero notes on any of them in the submission, but a couple of times I have pulled whomever the grader is that makes meticulous notes.

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 1/3/2024 at 10:21 PM, gmasstermcd said:

CGC has graders notes that they just don't put on the website and keep them internal for no reason what-so-ever.

Not for no reason. This right here is one instance they become useful.

On top of this,  it was discussed in other threads where this may be artifacts from the previous way they graded . Where they had 3 different graders each grade a book then discus and come to a consensus before assignment of the final grade. 

[Snowdon]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:40 AM, Lightning55 said:

The announcement also allowed for the possibility of more books, since no one can be certain that there are not undiscovered swapped books out there:

"If you have any questions, or if you believe you have a tampered book that is not on our list, please reach out to us at ReportFraud@CollectiblesGroup.com."

I suspect that the list will be "fluid" in both directions. CGC did not say it was an exhaustive list.

How are they sure it’s just one person and just this one list? I would reckon there are more bad apples than just 1. 
 

CGC needs to revamp the reholdering process to include grading otherwise it sits uneasy with me. 

[Lightning55]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:46 AM, wiparker824 said:

This is indeed the real scam. I can’t even get notes on a 9.0 consistently this person is getting notes on 9.8’s???

I fall into this group, also. 

I've had around 2000 books graded, an even spread of Bronze, Copper, Modern. About 20% were 9.8s. I got 1 or 2 with Grader Notes. And as low as 8.5 with no notes at all. Very different results than Mr. Scammer. Some people are just "lucky".

[gmasstermcd]

On 1/4/2024 at 1:18 AM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

Not for no reason. This right here is one instance they become useful.

On top of this,  it was discussed in other threads where this may be artifacts from the previous way they graded . Where they had 3 different graders each grade a book then discus and come to a consensus before assignment of the final grade. 

In this timeline saying that CGC added these notes after the drama happened. If that is the case they only "became" useful because they weren't there before the drama. If they were there before and not kept internal then they would have been helpful before and after. 

On top of this these books were mostly graded between 2020 and 2023 so it's nothing to do with the "previous" way they graded. Hiding information and then releasing it after a problem arises is not useful. 

The fact that over 60% of the 9.8's have graders notes is a statistical outlier. Did CGC add them after the fact? maybe. Was there an inside man adding extra notes for these submissions as a way to evade scrutiny from people looking at the books and saying this isn't a 9.8? Maybe it's all speculation the only thing I know is that of the 55 ASM 194 9.8's  37 have graders notes and that is a ridiculously higher rate than any other books I have ever seen or heard of before. 

 

[gmasstermcd]

On 1/4/2024 at 1:30 AM, Lightning55 said:

I fall into this group, also. 

I've had around 2000 books graded, an even spread of Bronze, Copper, Modern. About 20% were 9.8s. I got 1 or 2 with Grader Notes. And as low as 8.5 with no notes at all. Very different results than Mr. Scammer. Some people are just "lucky".

I would even say arguably no one really cares if a 9.8 doesn't have a graders note, but a 9.6 that looks like a 9.8 not having notes is the worst.