ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Panda2]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:02 AM, Sigur Ros said:

Yes.  I checked it against all my DC and Independents... I'm good.

I got a hit on my ASM 194...

[wiparker824]

On 1/4/2024 at 6:56 AM, COMICLINK said:

 

 

No, this was not an inside job.

How could possible know this with certainty unless you’ve been let in on their internal investigation which I’m sure included an investigation of the employees who handled the books and may still be ongoing?

[COMICLINK]

On 1/4/2024 at 7:05 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

What do you mean the images are fine? The scammer gets the books reholdered, so the images in the database of course match up.

I will explain. There are cases where the individual purchased the book from another seller, via ComicLink, then turned around at a later date, and resold the same book (same cert number), after having it reholdered (b/c it was reholdered by him, it is included on CGC's list).  I can tell that the book is the same before/after as before from the images, because multiple defects, wraps, etc., line up the same exact way in the image before he bought it, and the image after he resold it.  

[pdags]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:50 AM, wiparker824 said:

They’re not going to slip in a Hulk 181 with a MVS and destroy your evidence.

I'm not saying CGC will do anything illegal like that...  I'm simply saying, shipping your book back in for a re-holdering is the loss of your best evidence.   Without knowing CGC is working with law enforcement and this is what law enforcement wants, I would feel incredibly uncomfortable in that situation.

[wiparker824]

On 1/4/2024 at 7:11 AM, pdags said:

I'm not saying CGC will do anything illegal like that...  I'm simply saying, shipping your book back in for a re-holdering is the loss of your best evidence.   Without knowing CGC is working with law enforcement and this is what law enforcement wants, I would feel incredibly uncomfortable in that situation.

I guess, to me it’s only a loss if you assume they won’t send it back or they will do something illegal. Otherwise you’re not losing anything. You will get it back. But there’s nothing compelling you to send it if it makes you feel better to hold onto it, just wouldn’t be too much of a worry for me.

[COMICLINK]

On 1/4/2024 at 7:42 AM, sledgehammer said:

Cool. So I guess this time that we are in agreement that comiclink couldn't possibly know that the list will slowly dwindle down from what it is now.

The only way the list of books to watch out for would not dwindle down is if CGC does not update it. 

ComicLink already has some books sent out to them to review/recertify with a different cert number, so after review they will no longer be books to watch out for, no longer books on this "recall list", regardless of whether or not they remain in the same condition.  We have only just begun this process.  It will obviously take time and effort, but will be getting in touch with all our clients that ever purchased one of these books, and this will happen soon.  Additionally, if they have resold books, we will advise them to inform the party they sold the book to and encourage them to go through the review process.   That will be good for both the most recent owner and the market as a whole.  If CGC is footing the bill, no reason not to do it.

Best way for CGC to handle the list now requires proactive updating by CGC.  The original list should stay up, but CGC should revise status for books that were resolved. Simply marking all reviewed and recertified books with a new cert number as "recertified" would mean that the certification number in question no longer exists, so no one need worry about it. 

 

[Mr. Spider-Woman]

On 1/3/2024 at 8:04 PM, universal soldier said:

 that's a lot of ASM #300's!  

 

That was my initial reaction as well. Wowee.

[sledgehammer]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:20 AM, COMICLINK said:

On 1/4/2024 at 6:42 AM, sledgehammer said:

Cool. So I guess this time that we are in agreement that comiclink couldn't possibly know that the list will slowly dwindle down from what it is now.

The only way the list of books to watch out for would not dwindle down is if CGC does not update it. 

Understood. Just keep in mind that after 3 weeks, many of us are completely, 100% convinced that this current list could not be a complete list of the books involved.

[pdags]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:15 AM, wiparker824 said:

I guess, to me it’s only a loss if you assume they won’t send it back or they will do something illegal.

Maybe I missed something, but 

• Before sending to CGC, I have a book encased with a mis-matching label (clear fraud)
• After re-holdering, I have a book in a case with matching label. (normal book)

Until I know legal authorities are content with their evidence, the situation, and are recommending this behavior, I'm not relinquishing my best evidence to CGC.  The fact that CGC is asking us to willingly give up our best evidence without knowing legal enforcement is involved is a slippery slope for them.  We're putting blind trust in them.

Edited January 4 by pdags

[drotto]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:27 AM, pdags said:

Maybe I missed something, but 

• Before sending to CGC, I have a book encased with a mis-matching label (clear fraud)
• After re-holdering, I have a book in a case with matching label. (normal book)

Until I know legal authorities are content with their evidence, the situation, and are recommending this behavior, I'm not relinquishing my best evidence to CGC.  

Once CGC starts seeing these books, it would also be nice to know exactly what they are finding.  Let's see some videos of them cracking a hulk 181 and paging to the missing MVS.  They need to be transparent about what they are actually finding, and if they are indeed pursuing this criminally they must be documenting every suspect book they review in extreme detail, and better yet in view of legal authorities.  

[pdags]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:31 AM, drotto said:

if they are indeed pursuing this criminally they must be documenting

Who knows.   A better course of action would simply be to say, "Please send these books back.  We're working with the FBI to review each and every book for fraud.  After the FBI have reviewed it we'll review and/or re-holder the book, etc."

 

[ShaggyB]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:48 AM, BrashL said:

If this doesn’t at least lead to graded notes on every slab….man what are we even doing?  After all this how can anything else be adequate. And yes, even 9.8s have flaws.  

THIS.... 100% THIS!!!!

Why is their any book with no notes on it thats not a 10. Even that should have a joke note: "what a find!", "So perfect it almost glows", etc.

But yes what makes my book a 9.8 and not a 9.9, that should be on every 9.8. Id also be curious what makes my 9.9 not a 10.

But this gets really important when we get down to what makes my 9.6 not a 9.8, everything should be listed.

Think of it this way, i cant make an informed decision about sending back for a press and regrade if i dont know the flaws and feel a press might fix them. 

We need this on every book and that will help to make sure we as buyers of cgc slabs can check the notes and see if the book we see matches them. This added to the pic in the verify tool is enough to help us avoid scams and report them before it gets to a level where cgc might have to buy back some books

[wiparker824]

On 1/4/2024 at 7:27 AM, pdags said:

Maybe I missed something, but 

• Before sending to CGC, I have a book encased with a mis-matching label (clear fraud)
• After re-holdering, I have a book in a case with matching label. (normal book)

Until I know legal authorities are content with their evidence, the situation, and are recommending this behavior, I'm not relinquishing my best evidence to CGC.  

Well that process will only happen if they’ve determined it wasn’t fraudulent and retaining its grade. In which case you have no “evidence” that would matter unless like I said you believe CGC themselves will do something nefarious. If your book is actually evidence they said they will be contacting you so that they can review with more documentation. And even if they do that and at the end you decide to have them send the book back regraded and relabeled correctly you’re going to have a paper trail to link these 2 certs together if needed in the future. I don’t see a lot of risk of loss of anything sending these back in to CGC, but again if you or others do by all means you’re entitled to hold on to them.

Edited January 4 by wiparker824

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:31 AM, drotto said:

Once CGC starts seeing these books, it would also be nice to know exactly what they are finding.  Let's see some videos of them cracking a hulk 181 and paging to the missing MVS.  They need to be transparent about what they are actually finding, and if they are indeed pursuing this criminally they must be documenting every suspect book they review in extreme detail, and better yet in view of legal authorities.  

I doubt anything even close to that happens- each individual or entity that sends a book back in and finds it to be less than the state grade will be informed of such (you'd hope)  They are the only one's CGC is obligated to inform or compensate.  Also, broadcasting the specific of the fraud would not be disclosed so publicly in a criminal or civil case. That would not be in CGC's best interest, or in the interest of prosecuting the fraudster.

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:04 AM, Panda2 said:

I got a hit on my ASM 194...

and you got it from.....

[MyNameIsLegion]

I'm still waiting on an answer as to how the 350 can be the total number of books that are suspect if this guys has sold a great many more books over the course of 15 years on eBay. Not necessarily every book that was swapped went back to CGC, some may have been sold or traded off into the wild. Every serial number of a CGC he every sold is just as questionable as the ones that he submitted to CGC. If CGC didn't catch the swap, then the average customer may not either. Blue label for Blue label ASM#300's could have been swapped from 9.8 to 9.4.  Then He sent legit raw 9.8 to CGC to get another slab to swap with another 9.4.  That would be the simplest scheme given the high number of the same books to keep a pipeline going and not risk being caught by CGC every time.

Edited January 4 by MyNameIsLegion

[MatterEaterLad]

On 1/3/2024 at 10:13 PM, comeaux said:

CGC released this list so they should obviously know who the scammer(s) are, why not release the name(s) to protect the community? 

At this point if CGC cares about the collecting community, they need to release the name. 

Instead of just looking up certs, it would be helpful for those who might have purchased directly from this person.

Also, it would reassure the community that this was only one person and not several. And not a CGC employee.

Yes, I know, lawyers might be advising against this. But those attorneys care about CGC first and the rest of us second, if at all.

If boardies know, they should step up. 

 

[Panda2]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:54 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

and you got it from.....

CLINK: https://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?id=1583555#detail

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:02 AM, MatterEaterLad said:

At this point if CGC cares about the collecting community, they need to release the name. 

Instead of just looking up certs, it would be helpful for those who might have purchased directly from this person.

Also, it would reassure the community that this was only one person and not several. And not a CGC employee.

Yes, I know, lawyers might be advising against this. But those attorneys care about CGC first and the rest of us second, if at all.

If boardies know, they should step up. 

 

people get unduly itchy about outing people. They have this existential fear of reprisal or lawsuit if they do. It's all in how you word it. IF someone here has one of the books in question, and they simply state that they bought that book from person X on this date for this much. that's ALL they need say. IF 2 or 3 people do that same and the same name crops up again, no one has made any accusations, they've simply stated the facts. Everyone else can put 2 and 2 together. 

Edited January 4 by MyNameIsLegion

[sledgehammer]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:07 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

people get unduly itchy about outing people. They have this existential fear of reprisal or lawsuit if they do. It's all in how you word it. IF someone here has one of the books in question, and they simply state that they bought that book from person X on this date for this much. that's ALL they need say. IF 2 or 3 people do that same and they name crops up again, no one has made any accusations, they've simply stated the facts. Everyone else can put 2 and 2 together. 

Well said. However, it may be really tough to nail it down to the one person suspected.

I'm pretty sure that it's all about "who" is sending these listed books in.

Here is the AF 15, as it is now.  https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/1589872002/

I'm going to send Mike some screen captures, from 2020, that show an AF 15  6.5 yellow, with a price tag on it, in a different yellow holder than the custom label shown in the grading notes.

The site that was captured on appears to be incredibly relevant.

Clearly both note the same "Stan Lee 86" notation.

Both books have the same 2-3 major spine dings, especially the one close to "MAY"

The cert # is not legible enough, but all things considered, there are telling signs that they are the same, still, after the custom label.

Both books are clearly not autographed on the front cover

So the big question is, why was it sent in for a reholder/custom label, if the cert # is in fact still the same??

There are 3 times a 6,5 has been graded yellow. Only 5 other higher graded books have been graded yellow.

Edited January 4 by sledgehammer
may