ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[awakeintheashes]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:52 PM, Buzzetta said:

If only that still existed, whoever was keeping track would tell you that it was sad that you still do not have any "pernts" over the last three and a half years... if such a scoreboard still existed. 

Sounds like something that is something people would like for the type of people that like that type of thing. 

[Buzzetta]

Okay... I have a question. 

How did the scammer scam the Yellow Label SS?  Are we suggesting that he forged signatures?  To what end does that serve?   It seems like it is easier to shift lower grade or green label books into a new slab to achieve the better label grade, then resubmit the actual higher grade book as a new submit and have two higher graded books. 

However, how does this work with the Yellow Label SS unless he was forging signatures?  There were a couple of statements and questions that people had yesterday that left me scratching my head. 

Edited January 5 by Buzzetta

[paqart]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:57 PM, Buzzetta said:

Okay... I have a question. 

How did the scammer scam the Yellow Label SS?  Are we suggesting that he forged signatures?  To what end does that serve?   It seems like it is easier to shift lower grade or green label books into a new slab to achieve the better label grade, then resubmit the actual higher grade book as a new submit and have two higher graded books. 

However, how does this work with the Yellow Label SS unless he was forging signatures?  There were a couple of statements and questions that people had yesterday that left me scratching my head. 

Th eonly reason I can think of for including SS comics is that they suspect he is forging signatures. For the record, the silver ink back cover "Stan Lee" on the AF15 looked wrong to me. Every other SL sig that I've seen is clearer than that. As for the interior sig, no way to tell. Maybe that sig is legit but the scammer wanted an SS label, impossible for a sig that pre-dated the CGC, so he figures there's no harm in adding a fake one?

[Buzzetta]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:08 PM, paqart said:

Th eonly reason I can think of for including SS comics is that they suspect he is forging signatures. For the record, the silver ink back cover "Stan Lee" on the AF15 looked wrong to me. Every other SL sig that I've seen is clearer than that. As for the interior sig, no way to tell. Maybe that sig is legit but the scammer wanted an SS label, impossible for a sig that pre-dated the CGC, so he figures there's no harm in adding a fake one?

Link that image to me please. 

[Lightning55]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:14 PM, tmac100 said:

Couldn't they just be valid books he sent in to be graded for the first time, along with the book to reholder?  Maybe part of the strategy - it seems like it would be less scrutinized if he sent in a reholder along with a bunch of books to be graded for the first time.  If a book was only submitted/graded once, they are probably considering it to be legit.

Books to be graded, and books to be reholdered, have to be in separate submissions, so their numbers would not be sequential or even related.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/4/2024 at 6:06 PM, gmasstermcd said:

 

 

Calling someone a jerk and saying someone is being kind of a jerk are not the same.

Listen dude tough to have a real conversation with someone who doesnt know what auction sites even charge or knows the difference between market value and net profit.

 

[wiparker824]

On 1/4/2024 at 7:57 PM, Buzzetta said:

Okay... I have a question. 

How did the scammer scam the Yellow Label SS.  Are we suggesting that he forged signatures?  To what end does that serve?   It seems like it is easier to shift lower grade or green label books into a new slab to achieve the better label grade, then resubmit the actual higher grade book as a new submit and have two higher graded books. 

However, how does this work with the Yellow Label SS unless he was forging signatures?  There were a couple of statements and questions that people had yesterday that left me scratching my head. 

If the yellow labels are indeed fraudulent it’s likely forgery. Let’s say you have an AF 15 in a 5.0 slide out your 6.5 legit SS copy and send it to the other grading company for a “verified signature” forge the signature on your 5.0 and slip it back in the 6.5 holder and send in for a reholder. This may not be as easy or profitable but it still nets a profit if successful. 

I will say though if I had one of these yellow labels I’d like to know what they plan to do when I send it in. For the blue labels I get it, they’re checking if the grade is accurate, the MVS is intact, etc. But what are they doing or planning to do for the yellow labels? CGC’s policy on yellow labels has always been if they don’t witness it, it’s not getting a yellow, and if it’s possible these were slipped out and replaced they can’t actually ever validate that they were witnessed. So, are they going to automatically drop to a blue or green label with “Stan Lee written on cover”?

[Buzzetta]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:18 PM, wiparker824 said:

If the yellow labels are indeed fraudulent it’s likely forgery. Let’s say you have an AF 15 in a 5.0 slide out your 6.5 legit SS copy and send it to the other grading company for a “verified signature” forge the signature on your 5.0 and slip it back in the 6.5 holder and send in for a reholder. This may not be as easy or profitable but it still nets a profit if successful. 

I will say though if I had one of these yellow labels I’d like to know what they plan to do when I send it in. For the blue labels I get it, they’re checking if the grade is accurate, the MVS is intact, etc. But what are they doing or planning to do for the yellow labels? CGC’s policy on yellow labels has always been if they don’t witness it, it’s not getting a yellow, and if it’s possible these were slipped out and replaced they can’t actually ever validate that they were witnessed. So, are they going to automatically drop to a blue or green label with “Stan Lee written on cover”?

Right, that is basically my confusion too.  CGC should never be accepting a book like this as it breaks the "supposed" chain of command in their signature series program.  On top of that, that seems like a bit of a problem because then there would be two SS books in that list per title and issue if I am understanding this correctly. 

[Lightning55]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:30 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

...you can add labels to any book when filling out a grading submission form,I understand it all on one reg submission form, 

You cannot randomly add labels. The submission has to be entirely labels, or entirely non-label.

[wiparker824]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:20 PM, Buzzetta said:

Right, that is basically my confusion too.  CGC should never be accepting a book like this as it breaks the "supposed" chain of command in their signature series program.  On top of that, that seems like a bit of a problem because then there would be two SS books in that list per title and issue if I am understanding this correctly. 

Well you can reholder SS books, I’ve done it before, dropped a Stan signed book and the corner chipped. However in my case it was obvious the book couldn’t possibly be slipped out. In this person’s case, that wasn’t true, but the presumption is if CGC treated their blue labels like they weren’t damaged enough to need a regrade they’d do the same with the yellow label. 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/4/2024 at 7:05 PM, comeaux said:

You’re dealing with a SlabTard who has to sell a few 100 books a week to survive in a shlthole city with a miserable life. His M.O. is to vehemently defend any criticism of CGC. Look at all of his posts, it’s very obvious 

A few hundred books a week? Damn dude I would be living in the Hollywood Hills!

A hundred a month, and I left Philly for soCal.  Better weather at least.

I am only defending the absurdity of what some have said, nothing more. 

 

 

[BlancoBros]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:15 PM, darkstar said:

It is unknown if the scammer was able to swap labels/books at home and reseal them without requiring a re-submission to CGC for a reholder or custom label. In theory he could have swapped the 4277700006 label at home with an inferior copy without ever re-submitting it to CGC. It depends entirely on whether he was able to crack the slab and reseal it without noticeably damaging it. Until that is ruled out as a possibility CGC should have released a list of every book that was ever submitted under his account and not ones that were only resubmissions.

Correct, we do not know if they were resealing them without cgc. 

But so far, there is no evidence to support that. I'm sure cgc is researching/ruling out that one.
If that changes, I'm sure they will update the list.

Chances are there will be more than 350. This initial list are probably the ones most likely to have something wrong. 

 

[Buzzetta]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:24 PM, wiparker824 said:

Well you can reholder SS books, I’ve done it before, dropped a Stan signed book and the corner chipped. However in my case it was obvious the book couldn’t possibly be slipped out. In this person’s case, that wasn’t true, but the presumption is if CGC treated their blue labels like they weren’t damaged enough to need a regrade they’d do the same with the yellow label. 

Now this is what I am talking about though.  What are you doing with the original copy?  Let's say you are screwing around and monkeying the books.  When it came to the Hulks it is no big deal because you send the lower grade 6.5 missing a value stamp copy in with the 8.5 copy slab and then send the actual 8.5 copy in as a brand new submit.

Now do that with a signed book.  The chain of custody is automatically broken so where does the original signed book go to?   Is that going to a competitor to be verified?   See what I am getting at?

Edited January 5 by Buzzetta

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/4/2024 at 7:26 PM, Buzzetta said:

Now this is what I am talking about though.  What are doing with the original copy?  Let's say you are screwing around and monkeying the books.  When it came to the Hulks it is no big deal because you send the lower grade 6.5 missing a value stamp copy in with the 8.5 copy slab and then send the actual 8.5 copy in as a brand new submit.

Now do that with a signed book.  The chain of custody is automatically broken so where does the original signed book go to?   Is that going to a competitor to be verified?   See what I am getting at?

Unless they messed with the inner-well, the signed book is prob okay.

[Buzzetta]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:28 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Unless they messed with the inner-well, the signed book is prob okay.

Right.  And that is what I am not getting.

What is the purpose of monkeying around with a signed book to begin with? 

 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/4/2024 at 7:29 PM, Buzzetta said:

Right.  And that is what I am not getting.

What is the purpose of monkeying around with a signed book to begin with? 

 

Who knows what went on.  Again from that list of 350 I would imagine some of fine, but the ones where there multiples of the books I would think a good amount could have been tampered. (asm 252 300 238's etc)

I think the ASM 238's might be the big one. 

[wiparker824]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:26 PM, Buzzetta said:

Now this is what I am talking about though.  What are doing with the original copy?  Let's say you are screwing around and monkeying the books.  When it came to the Hulks it is no big deal because you send the lower grade 6.5 missing a value stamp copy in with the 8.5 copy slab and then send the actual 8.5 copy in as a brand new submit.

Now do that with a signed book.  The chain of custody is automatically broken so where does the original signed book go to?   Is that going to a competitor to be verified?   See what I am getting at?

Like I said there are other grading companies that provide yellow labels for books that aren’t witnessed. So the question is, hypothetically of course, does a 6.5 CGC SS + 5.0 CGC go for more than a 6.5 CGC SS + 6.5 “company which won’t be named” SS? 

[Buzzetta]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:33 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Who knows what went on.  Again from that list of 350 I would imagine some of fine, but the ones where there multiples of the books I would think a good amount could have been tampered. (asm 252 300 238's etc)

I think the ASM 238's might be the big one. 

There is a very good chance that the graders have been grading tampered 238's for years.   There are a lot of married tattooz books out there and I doubt that they were detected as such. 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/4/2024 at 7:34 PM, Buzzetta said:

There is a very good chance that the graders have been grading tampered 238's for years.   There are a lot of married tattooz books out there and I doubt that they were detected as such. 

Yup you are reading my mind, from that FF book you can get the tats right?

[Sweet Lou 14]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:47 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Roy is my arch enemy.

I yell at him at least 2 a year.

Not nearly often enough for an archenemy.

Just sayin'.