ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[MyNameIsLegion]

Ok, back on track. CGC posted a list of 350 books that are suspect. the only problem with the list is it's not the 1681 that briva3 sold on eBay. We can't even assume that 350 is included in the 1681. But we do know he sold 1681 items on eBay alone.  The list of 350 likely included donor books to be swapped into 9.8 holders, and some legit 9.8s.  Those are the facts. Until we known the serial number of every slab sold on eBay PLUS the 350 CGC has listed we know we have as many as 2031 slabs. I know there were some duplicate listings on eBay to reconcile. But the number is is closer to 2000 on the high side and no less than 1330, not 350. 

Additionally, knowing how many slabs and raw he purchased online would also be informative. Most any slab he bought as a donor book likely does not exist anymore.  The census is overstated for every book that had it's slab cracked to get the donor book inside, unless he also upcycled 9.0 into 9.4's but that seems less likely.  I agree the risk of being caught goes up with grades under 9.6 that risk CPR, so unless he was greedy or stupid, those cracked slabs are in a landfill.

Edited January 6 by MyNameIsLegion

[agamoto]

On 1/5/2024 at 9:42 PM, BrashL said:

The silence from CGC on what’s actually going on is deafening. The list they released just created more questions. 

Like others have stated, this list is a drop in the bucket of the books this guy touched. He's got eBay usernames I and others tracked back to 2000, and sales of slabs we've been able to track back to 2006 with available sales record databases. Every book this guy touched should be on a list. To me, as long as this remains an inside investigation, any list like this is just theater. It's not nearly as exhaustive as it should be and needs to be, even if 90% of the submissions end up being legit. It's amazing how much work CGC has left for others to do on this when they could have laid it all out for us. Give us direct links to every verification page, remove the search limitations on the certification database for all of the suspect books, show us ALL this persons submissions, link directly to images you have. For that matter, hire some outside analytics professionals to analyze submission data and search for patterns to determine if there are other submitters pulling the same tricks and let us all know! Instead, we get a static, partial list of ONE guy's submissions getting picked over and torn through by unpaid legions of armchair sleuths and it's only opened up more questions than it answers.

On 1/5/2024 at 10:18 PM, Iconic1s said:

I hope that CGC isn’t naming names because they are taking this as seriously as they should be.  Working with law investigators and law enforcement to make sure they can bring the most serious charges possible.  If some sleuth drops a name that’s one thing, but maybe if CGC drops names too soon it compromises the case.

At least this is what I am hoping. 

How's the hope and changey thing working out for everybody?

On 1/5/2024 at 12:31 PM, Heronext said:

Does anyone remember if the buy-side account for eBay transactions was visible to all users (even those not involved in the transaction) back in 2016, and is that information searchable with services like Worthpoint and Terapeak?

@comicwiz

Sure, there's definitely a way... It's called handing over the investigation to a federal authority with the capability of demanding that exact sort of information from eBay or any other venue the guy frequented that even CGC doesn't know about. This guy could have been liquidating books on the daily via facebook waffles for 90% of FMV for all we know, and we will NEVER know if CGC's private richards are the only ones on the case as they would have ZERO ability to find out such details.

Unless they publicly state otherwise, CGC has not asked for any federal investigative input. For that matter, they're mum as to whether they've even called the local cops! It's my guess they are doing their own investigation so they can sue, get injunctive relief, a permanent RO and finally tie a nice bow on the whole case with an iron-clad NDA on top. 

I'd be willing to bet every CGC slab I own that the results of this debacle are going to track closely with how the Richard Albright case wound down last summer between Albright and NGC, CGC's sister company under the CCG umbrella. 

“We are not afraid to hire private investigators and outside law firms in order to bring justice to those who wish to steal from members of the numismatic community.”

Sound familiar?

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/11938/ Not a fraud case mind you, not even a criminal case, just a trademark infringement suit against albright for using NGC cases to deceive buyers.

So what happened with Richard? No criminal charges. Zip. Could there be in this comic case? Possibly, but because of things like statute of limitations, evidence that's been "fixed" by CGC, or complete lack of a chain of custody for any of it all, more than likely not. 

Just like other scandals that have rocked this community, the question marks... god almighty, so many questions... here on the boards are never going away unless this is thoroughly, and independently investigated by federal authorities with jurisdiction over these crimes. 

CGC simply admitting they are working with the Feds would go a long way to help here. They haven't, and I suspect they won't.

Edited January 6 by agamoto

[pdags]

On 1/5/2024 at 6:42 PM, HighGrade said:

I still firmly stand by the fact that any attempt to swap and reseal will be noticeable if you look, and CGC should be talking about that fact that there will be signs of tampering.  Maybe they fear saying that plain and simple an employee just did not checked well enough on cracked holders would be worse for them, but eaving this "you can easily swap and reseal good enough to fool CGC themselves is hurting MUCH more than just admitting a "bad" employee did not do his job on cracked holders would be better.

I think CGC is realizing they can't easily or cost-efficiently differentiate between tampering and an accident.  If they can't easily tell the difference than collectors can't either.

IMHO the re-holdering process is going to become way more expensive (basically the cost of *verifying* the grade and slab and re-sealing everything), way more stringent, or for un-damaged slabs only.  If the later, all damaged slabs will end up being re-graded.  I don't think CGC wants this as the cost will only go up due to time and effort, so they're looking at it very carefully trying to figure out how to keep costs down.

I'm actually thinking about sending in a few books for re-holdering before any changes in price or the service happen.  ;-)

Edited January 6 by pdags

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/6/2024 at 8:32 AM, pdags said:

I'm actually thinking about sending in a few books for re-holdering before any changes in price or the service happen.  ;-)

I’m wondering if CGC is going to put out revised reholder protocols.  

[mr_highgrade]

On 1/6/2024 at 3:18 AM, shadroch said:

Danny lived in Floral Park or Little Neck, right on the Nassau Border.  He's about ten miles from Forest Hills.      

He still lives there. 

[shadroch]

On 1/6/2024 at 7:31 AM, mr_highgrade said:

He still lives there. 

It's a lovely old corner house, that has seen better days.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/6/2024 at 9:31 AM, mr_highgrade said:

He still lives there. 

Have we ruled out his involvement in this debacle?

[shadroch]

On 1/6/2024 at 7:57 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Have we ruled out his involvement in this debacle?

I don't believe anyone has been ruled out.  

However, to be fair, there are about two million people who live or work in Queens so the stuff getting mailed from there doesn't mean much.

[Martian Manhunter]

Just goes to show how awful Marvel comics is and their fanbase. Marvel fans have been trying to push their comics hard to raise values. These same fans have been trashing and destroying anything DC for many years on the internet as well (especially DC movies). Marvel movies are the worst. Its boring kiddie trash, just like their comics.😂🤣😂🤣

[mr_highgrade]

On 1/6/2024 at 9:57 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Have we ruled out his involvement in this debacle?

 Dupcak is a loner, he wouldn't get involve with this guy and spill HIS trade secrets. He does have lackeys that he uses for his aliases, like Ed Kelly. Although, I am not sure Ed is still with us anymore. 

[MAR1979]

On 1/6/2024 at 10:03 AM, shadroch said:

I don't believe anyone has been ruled out.  

However, to be fair, there are about two million people who live or work in Queens so the stuff getting mailed from there doesn't mean much.

Correct.  Queens Pop is  ~2.4Million. Plus as was pointed out earlier contains the largest Fedex and UPS Hubs in the United States. Please some of the largest USPS hubs as well. 

Then you have Brooklyn with ~2.5Million right next to and partially surrounding Queens served by some of the same distro hubs.

Lastly Nassau County border Queens with ~1.3 Million Pop.  The western half of the county is also served by the same hubs.

Bottom line Queens is a HUGE Metropolitan Area.  Easily in the top 2 most difficult places in the United States to narrow down anybody.

Edited January 6 by MAR1979

[sledgehammer]

I'm not putting a name on scamboy, because at this point, 1000 miles away, I can't document that the faces that we are positive are Bree and "Zaneglor", officially are.

Despite clear evidence that both have had facebook accounts, so far I have not spotted a photo on one of Bree's friends that says something obvious, like "Me and Bree at the Rangers game".

"Zaneglor's" facebook page is clearly gone.

Bree's facebook page offers no clue.

The logic in the connection is irrefutable, and whether it is a federal agency, or a local NY agency, someone will officially document it.

I will say that it appears to me that scamboy applied for a license for a new business name, connected to "comics" in December.

Any other speculation at this point, probably doesn't add anything to the thread at this point.

[Mystafo]

On 1/6/2024 at 9:12 AM, Martian Manhunter said:

Just goes to show how awful Marvel comics is and their fanbase. Marvel fans have been trying to push their comics hard to raise values. These same fans have been trashing and destroying anything DC for many years on the internet as well (especially DC movies). Marvel movies are the worst. Its boring kiddie trash, just like their comics.😂🤣😂🤣

wut?

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/6/2024 at 10:25 AM, sledgehammer said:

I will say that it appears to me that scamboy applied for a license for a new business name, connected to "comics" in December.

Before or after this thread appeared?

[sledgehammer]

On 1/6/2024 at 9:37 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

On 1/6/2024 at 9:25 AM, sledgehammer said:

I will say that it appears to me that scamboy applied for a license for a new business name, connected to "comics" in December.

Before or after this thread appeared?

Almost immediately after.

[awakeintheashes]

On 1/6/2024 at 1:41 AM, Iconic1s said:

OR they, meaning CGC, just weren’t checking for the evidence of the tampering.

Based on the tonnage of posts in the QC thread and my own experiences with MEs, I can easily believe this is where the weak point was. 

[MasterChief]

On 1/6/2024 at 5:12 AM, mr_highgrade said:

On 1/6/2024 at 4:57 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Have we ruled out his involvement in this debacle?

 Dupcak is a loner, he wouldn't get involve with this guy and spill HIS trade secrets. He does have lackeys that he uses for his aliases, like Ed Kelly. Although, I am not sure Ed is still with us anymore. 

Quick question: This may have been confirmed elsewhere, as it's been discussed multiple times in past threads, but is eBay seller "kellyssuperheroes" Daniel Dupcak?

[buttock]

On 1/6/2024 at 9:16 AM, MasterChief said:

Quick question: This may have been confirmed elsewhere, as it's been discussed multiple times in past threads, but is eBay seller "kellyssuperheroes" Daniel Dupcak?

Almost certainly.

[Iconic1s]

On 1/6/2024 at 7:32 AM, pdags said:

I'm actually thinking about sending in a few books for re-holdering before any changes in price or the service happen.  ;-)

Good luck!  I’m personally not sending in any reholders until this all blows over.  I’d hate to have my book there and then suddenly be subject to a new policy I don’t agree with (such as sending everything back for regrading all books).

[shadroch]

On 1/6/2024 at 8:21 AM, MAR1979 said:

Correct.  Queens Pop is  ~2.4Million. Plus as was pointed out earlier the largest Fedex and UPS Hubs in the United States. Please some of the largest USPS hubs as well. 

Then you have Brooklyn with ~2.5Million right next to and partially surrounding Queens served by some of the same distro hubs.

Lastly Nassau County with ~1.3 Million the western half side is also served by the same hubs.

Bottom line Queens is a HUGE Metropolitan Area.  Easily in the top 2 most difficult places in the United States to narrow down anybody.

If Queens was still a separate city and not the newest part of NYC, it would be the fourth biggest city in the country.