ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[agamoto]

On 1/9/2024 at 10:19 AM, NewWorldOrder said:

 

Pretty sure they said that in their last statement.   They were in fact starting a investigation.

C'mon man, you're not stupid. Hiring their own PI team and outside legal counsel does not = involving local/state/federal agencies. One of the first things the feds do in such a case is tell companies NOT to self-investigate before they're on the job because evidence and chains of custody can be easily corrupted. 

[mrd160]

On 1/9/2024 at 1:30 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Okay so from what you just said it sounds like CGC is doing an investigation.

Right, and after that it will all be internal till maybe you see the final results.

agreed

[wiparker824]

On 1/9/2024 at 11:30 AM, mrd160 said:

I saw that. The cert numbers are blacked out. Is that common....like I said I don't do instagram

Some of them are some of them are just poor resolution. It’s not common no. They posted a very clear one for the 4.5 SS AF 15 that was in the same original submission as the 6.5 SS (on the list) and the 2.5 SS though: 

[mrd160]

On 1/9/2024 at 1:33 PM, wiparker824 said:

Some of them are some of them are just poor resolution. It’s not common no. They posted a very clear one for the 4.5 SS AF 15 that was in the same original submission as the 6.5 SS (on the list) and the 2.5 SS though: 

I meant on the asm 300's

[wiparker824]

On 1/9/2024 at 11:34 AM, mrd160 said:

I meant on the asm 300's

Yeah they have several of those 300’s not all are 9.8’s some are raw some are slabbed some are blacked out manually by them on the cert numbers and some are just not high enough resolution for me personally to be able to make out. Maybe someone else can.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/9/2024 at 10:32 AM, agamoto said:

C'mon man, you're not stupid. Hiring their own PI team and outside legal counsel does not = involving local/state/federal agencies. One of the first things the feds do in such a case is tell companies NOT to self-investigate before they're on the job because evidence and chains of custody can be easily corrupted. 

Well thank you.

I am not at the company.  I have no idea what they are or not doing, but I know I am not entitled to any of that information unless I could help with investigation directly.   Even then giving CGC a name or evidence would probably just stop there.  Doubt anyone who calls in gets anymore information past what they are telling the fraud investigator.

Edited January 9 by NewWorldOrder

[Heronext]

On 1/9/2024 at 1:29 PM, mrd160 said:

Yes, both the fraud investigators and Matt Nelson directly. I want to be clear, I hate social media and message boards. No offense people lol...just not my thing.Also, I generally never buy slabs. I spent years learning to grade and spot resto so I didn't have to. I shared info to try and help fellow collectors. I really don't care beyond that. I have been collecting since 1973 and have submitted 0 books to cgc, just not my thing. My wife, who is an attorney spent a lot of time drafting the e-mail detailing what we KNEW and forwarded it to the proper people. After that, it's up to CGC.

A lot of people here think 99% of collectors are savvy to the boards and to CGC and eBay.  There's a sizable old school out there I think people underestimate.

I know someone like you, has a huge collection and never graded a book. 

Edited January 9 by Heronext

[agamoto]

Everyone needs to be careful when it comes to this particular instagram/brick&mortar seller because they too could very well be victims in all this. How, I'm not sure, but it's possible. Yes, there's a lot of questionable connections that could certainly use some explanation, but let's remember that it's the USA, and you're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. 

[Lightning55]

On 1/8/2024 at 10:25 PM, Lightning55 said:

I second this motion emphatically.

New numbers being inserted randomly is a tracking nightmare. Even appending them is problematic, if no one knows there was a change to "The List". Someone here would have to be in charge of updating it in real time to keep it straight. 

Otherwise, over time "The List" becomes "Sorta The List".

Additional cert numbers need their own mini-announcement. In groups, maybe.

Or a separate thread started with the original list, and then posts from CGC as each number emerges and becomes part of the new list.

 

On 1/9/2024 at 12:51 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Just trying to catch up here.  Are you and others saying that even when a book on the "350 List" is sent in for evaluation each the old CGC serial number should remain on the list and even the new CGC serial should be added a new list of re-evaluated books?

Example:  I sent in an ASM #300 CGC 9.8 from the list and then CGC determines it was in fact a 9.4.  So the CGC 9.8 Cert # stays and the CGC 9.4 cert. # is put on a new list for everyone to see?

I did say, a long way back, that when a book is checked and reholdered, the old number and new number would stay on the list, for a paper trail. At the time, it was not stated that the old number would stay on the list with a strike-through. I thought they were literally going to "take it off the list", as in remove it. So the strike-through works great. But we should see what the progression is on these books, as in did the grade change, or did it go from blue to green. We have no idea what % of these books are being found to be corrupt. 

This post was directed at the idea of inserting any new suspect cert numbers (new books thought to be scammed) onto the list in any random method. That it would be hard to track numbers added if not highlighted in some way, grouped in some way, and identified as additional suspect certs. And to inform us at such time that new certs have been added, so we have a heads up to check the new numbers.

[agamoto]

On 1/9/2024 at 10:36 AM, NewWorldOrder said:

Well thank you.

I am not at the company.  I have no idea what they are or not doing, but I know I am not entitled to any of that information unless I could help with investigation directly.   Even then giving CGC a name or evidence would probably just stop there.  Doubt anyone who calls in gets anymore information past what they are telling the fraud investigator.

Do you buy/sell/trade CGC branded slabs? If so, you're entitled to know what the hell is going on. 

[wiparker824]

On 1/9/2024 at 11:38 AM, Heronext said:

A lot of people here think 99% of collectors are savvy to the boards and to CGC.  There's a sizable old school out there I think people underestimate.

I know someone like you, has a huge collection and never graded a book.  I was once you too.  Sometimes wish I still was

It’s probably closer to 99% are not savy to the boards. And they’re probably happier people than us. 

[mrd160]

On 1/9/2024 at 1:38 PM, agamoto said:

Everyone needs to be careful when it comes to this particular instagram/brick&mortar seller because they too could very well be victims in all this. How, I'm not sure, but it's possible. Yes, there's a lot of questionable connections that could certainly use some explanation, but let's remember that it's the USA, and you're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. 

I agree with this 100% It does warrant scrutiny but we don't know we have to be patient. BUT the optics are pretty bad.

[Heronext]

On 1/9/2024 at 1:40 PM, wiparker824 said:

It’s probably closer to 99% are not savy to the boards. And they’re probably happier people than us. 

This deserves an 'Amen'

[Mikey C]

On 1/9/2024 at 1:38 PM, agamoto said:

Everyone needs to be careful when it comes to this particular instagram/brick&mortar seller because they too could very well be victims in all this. How, I'm not sure, but it's possible. Yes, there's a lot of questionable connections that could certainly use some explanation, but let's remember that it's the USA, and you're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. 

Agreed and great perspective. As I mentioned, I was just pointing out two of their public posts contained a book on the CGC list. Of course they could be victims. 

Edited January 9 by Mikey C

[Nick Furious]

On 1/9/2024 at 11:35 AM, mrd160 said:

that friggin' rug is ratting everybody out. rofl

Yeah, it doesn't necessarily incriminate the owners, but it certainly taints the books.  Although it does indicate who the owners might have been getting their inventory from.  I quit buying from a local convention dealer years ago when I realized that he had become a target for scammers looking to sell restored raw books.  I liked him, just had concerns about where he was getting his inventory from.  Time for new pics!     

Edited January 9 by Nick Furious

[wiparker824]

On 1/9/2024 at 11:41 AM, mrd160 said:

I agree with this 100% It does warrant scrutiny but we don't know we have to be patient. BUT the optics are pretty bad.

Precisely.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/9/2024 at 10:38 AM, Lightning55 said:

 

I did say, a long way back, that when a book is checked and reholdered, the old number and new number would stay on the list, for a paper trail. At the time, it was not stated that the old number would stay on the list with a strike-through. I thought they were literally going to "take it off the list", as in remove it. So the strike-through works great. But we should see what the progression is on these books, as in did the grade change, or did it go from blue to green. We have no idea what % of these books are being found to be corrupt. 

This post was directed at the idea of inserting any new suspect cert numbers (new books thought to be scammed) onto the list in any random method. That it would be hard to track numbers added if not highlighted in some way, grouped in some way, and identified as additional suspect certs. And to inform us at such time that new certs have been added, so we have a heads up to check the new numbers.

Hmmmm I get why people would want that.  Just not sure in reality that would happen.

I get more of the strike-though the old serial number and leave it on the list, but I think where it would get dicey is new making the correctly graded book now have a new list.  Basically creating a new tainted list on books that are now in effect pure again.  See what I mean?

[GDN]

On 1/9/2024 at 8:38 AM, pdags said:

Any of these shops worth visiting?

• https://spineworkscomics.com (this one doesn't have the greatest photos on google)
• https://www.comicsr4kids.com
• https://royalcomicsnyc.com

 

All I've heard is on Thoro's stream he said the store rhymes with "nation" and he said he isn't referring to Epic .....so take that as you will.

[Heronext]

On 1/9/2024 at 1:40 PM, wiparker824 said:

It’s probably closer to 99% are not savy to the boards. And they’re probably happier people than us. 

The quiet collector, the reader who enjoys, the kid who bought his comic for ten cents in 1940 and read it a hundred times are the soul of this hobby

[agamoto]

On 1/9/2024 at 10:41 AM, mrd160 said:

I agree with this 100% It does warrant scrutiny but we don't know we have to be patient. BUT the optics are pretty bad.

What's really bad, to me, is that CGC is not telling us they are having feds investigate this fraud. All they want to tell us is they are self-investigating the matter.

This is a potential $1,000,000+ case of good ol' fashioned federal, felony, interstate wire fraud and those guilty of their crimes can end up serving ZERO jail time if evidence of the matter is not gathered and handled in a manner that is admissible in court.