ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[MAR1979]

On 1/22/2024 at 8:24 PM, Sigur Ros said:

Of course not. But this isn't news.

They should use this as an opportunity to find a supplier for clearer, sturdier, tamper-evident cases with no Newton rings.

Obviously they exist elsewhere.  Not sure why they haven't pursued it by now.

I thought limiting Mech Error returns to the original submitter and only for 14 days solved the rings problem? Are you saying it didn't ?

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/22/2024 at 5:25 PM, bc said:

All good man 

And to take it one step further, ALL submissions should be added to the submitter account as a Custom Registry set. 

The submitter can move them to any other Competitive of personal Custom Set anytime they want or they can leave them there.

That would then add another point in the chain of custody cycle and add a value-added service to differentiate from the competitors.

-bc 

Oh so you mean just the submitter can see?  aka not public right?

[bc]

On 1/22/2024 at 8:40 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Oh so you mean just the submitter can see?  aka not public right?

Yes.

It's a way to tie in several of the value-added service in the CGC eco-system.

Makes the customer feel like they are getting more than they are paying for.

-bc

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/22/2024 at 5:42 PM, bc said:

Yes.

It's a way to tie in several of the value-added service in the CGC eco-system.

Makes the customer feel like they are getting more than they are paying for.

-bc

I def think in the near future certain aspects of AI programs will help with things like that.

[bc]

On 1/22/2024 at 8:44 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

I def think in the near future certain aspects of AI programs will help with things like that.

You don't need AI for anything like this.

-bc

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/22/2024 at 5:46 PM, bc said:

You don't need AI for anything like this.

-bc

I want Terminator graders.

If a book fails a pre-screen it is destroyed on the spot.  That will cut down on pre-screen submissions.

 

Edited January 23 by NewWorldOrder

[wiparker824]

On 1/22/2024 at 12:44 PM, wiparker824 said:

I’ve been following a similar thread with regards to CL and ASM 194. Specifically they have 2 9.8’s ending tonight of that book. One is a direct (4344978004) and one is a newsstand (4287881001). Currently they are both sitting at 1700 and 1800 bids with the newsstand slightly higher. 

Neither book is on the list, but given that roughly 11% of the census of 9.8’s in this book are on the list these 2 sales are intriguing to me.

Also, one other tidbit, the newsstand copy isn’t on the list but a book from that same submission 4287881003 is on the list and has yet to be crossed off. Is it because the 003 book was submitted for a custom label and the 001 book was not? We don’t know because we aren’t being told how this list was compiled or how books are being determined to be clean and then crossed off.

Im not saying CL is listing a bad book, or has done anything wrong, but I can’t see how these books being sold without the full picture isn’t at all concerning to the buyers who are aware of this situation. I guess we will see how the final hammer price compares tonight. 

 

Kind of low for these books even if you add in CL’s 3% buyer premium. 

90 day GPA is $2688 for direct (8 sales), with the last sale being on HA 1/16 for $2760

90 day GPA is $2524 (only 2 sales) for newsstand with the last sale being on HA on 1/16 for $2640

Even so 4287881001 was the newsstand cert that isn’t on the list but is on the same submission as 4287881003 which is on the list and that’s the book that went for $200 more than the direct tonight. So I don’t know. 

[wiparker824]

On 1/22/2024 at 6:07 PM, agamoto said:

Well, if you ask 9.9Newstand, he'll tell you how the person who sold the dirty 252 MJ Variant told him of his connections with higher-ups at CGC regarding how they determined together there are 7 MJ copies of X-Men 266.

But it's ok, Matt Nelson also told 9.9 that no one internally at CGC is connected to this scam, and they've got Kroll investigators hot on the case, so it's all good.

 

I do believe to pull off these types of scams some of them would require some open lines of communication with CGC. Now, CGC’s customer service is not awful, you can actually talk to people when you email/call so this in it of itself isn’t a difficult task. But getting a non MJI book changed to an MJI is not a standard sub or even a standard reholder, and likely required some communication. Multiply that by many many times over for many years and you begin to have quite the relationship built up between the parties, which is why I’m sure this individual was very confident in their scheme. Due to this level of communication it seems hard to believe when CGC was told the name of the individual they said “What? Who is that?”. They very likely knew exactly who this was once it was revealed due to the high volume of submissions plus the required communication that would have had to take place for this scheme to work. This doesn’t necessarily mean someone in CGC was involved, but it doesn’t exactly rule it out either.

Just my opinion of course, which means nothing, since Kroll is in here watching. 

[DC#]

On 1/22/2024 at 6:07 PM, wiparker824 said:

 

Kind of low for these books even if you add in CL’s 3% buyer premium. 

90 day GPA is $2688 for direct (8 sales), with the last sale being on HA 1/16 for $2760

90 day GPA is $2524 (only 2 sales) for newsstand with the last sale being on HA on 1/16 for $2640

Even so 4287881001 was the newsstand cert that isn’t on the list but is on the same submission as 4287881003 which is on the list and that’s the book that went for $200 more than the direct tonight. So I don’t know. 

the ASM 300 9.8 sold for $3300 which is a bit above last sale and over $200 higher than 90 day.    

[wiparker824]

On 1/22/2024 at 7:37 PM, DC# said:

the ASM 300 9.8 sold for $3300 which is a bit above last sale and over $200 higher than 90 day.    

Yeah I was watching that one as well. Theres another ASM 300 going after midnight for some reason too, we will see where that one ends up but it appears those are doing better than the 194’s did this auction. 

[BrashL]

On 1/22/2024 at 6:22 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Many millions of dollars are linked to CGC's business.  I am no different than the many others in the hobby.

I asked you a question how is that a straw man argument to which you brought up?    I will ask again.

When you say "CGC Needs a New Holder."

Do you mean like from scratch or a slight modification?

Cause if you mean a brand new holder then that can not happen over night.  1-2 years or longer, slight modification is possible sooner.

So I am asking you and others what do want them to do before then just stop grading comics in regards to their current case?

They are obviously reading all posts here so what do you think is the best solution to start tomorrow morning.

 

How about answer one of my questions for once. Do you agree the slab is substandard and no longer best in the industry?  Let’s start there. 

[Sweet Lou 14]

On 1/22/2024 at 9:07 PM, wiparker824 said:

 

Kind of low for these books even if you add in CL’s 3% buyer premium. 

90 day GPA is $2688 for direct (8 sales), with the last sale being on HA 1/16 for $2760

90 day GPA is $2524 (only 2 sales) for newsstand with the last sale being on HA on 1/16 for $2640

Even so 4287881001 was the newsstand cert that isn’t on the list but is on the same submission as 4287881003 which is on the list and that’s the book that went for $200 more than the direct tonight. So I don’t know. 

ComicLink does not have a buyer premium.  They just say that in order to pass on their credit card fees to you.  Simply pay in cash to avoid those fees entirely.

[BlancoBros]

On 1/22/2024 at 6:31 PM, comicjel said:

As "maybe" this thread winds down, I find an aspect of the scam, as I believe we think it happened, to still not make sense to me so much.

The original "discovered" swap that started all this (i.e. the reholder to get the ASM 252 9.8 MJI).  To accomplish this scam, we think the guy had 2 books - a newstand 9.8 and a MJI 9.4 (or was it 9.2??), and that he sent in the MJI 9.4 with the Newstand 9.8 label and ended up with a reholdered MJI 9.8.

What really still bugs me about this specific swap is how the scammer "ever" would have felt confident enough to try to get CGC to both reholder this book (that presumably had a tampered outer holder) "and" to get them to effectively admit that they missed the MJI when originally graded "and" to feel confident enough that they would not go back and look at the original scan of the book.  To me that seems like adding multiple levels of risk to a scam that was working pretty seamlessly.  The scammer is going to take all that "extra" risk for what would effectively be a one-time benefit?? It's not like you could claim that they missed the MJI multiple times and not draw attention to yourself, right?  if adding this wrinkle causes CGC to go back and compare to the original scan, EVERYTHING is blown up!! - this money printing machine just seizes up!

I know you guys are going to say "crooks are dumb" and "crooks get careless"... but it is just an aspect of this scam that I can not shake! - I guess it is what makes me think that this is much bigger than it appears to us.   

Honestly, it's was not that big of a risk.
Look at the thread about QC. 

Almost as many pages as this thread. Slabbing errors are abundant and documented all over the internet.  Everyone knows that. So there was no "risk". It's plausible someone missed something during grading/slabbed/reholdering/etc. Add on top of that the backlog of books during covid. Briva3 probably tried it once, had no issues and ran with it. Obviously no one caught it.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/22/2024 at 6:07 PM, wiparker824 said:

 

Kind of low for these books even if you add in CL’s 3% buyer premium. 

90 day GPA is $2688 for direct (8 sales), with the last sale being on HA 1/16 for $2760

90 day GPA is $2524 (only 2 sales) for newsstand with the last sale being on HA on 1/16 for $2640

Even so 4287881001 was the newsstand cert that isn’t on the list but is on the same submission as 4287881003 which is on the list and that’s the book that went for $200 more than the direct tonight. So I don’t know. 

Unless they changed their policy in the last month or so I assumed you can still save on CL’s 3% buyer premium if you pay by check.

The fact this book even sells for $1k still amazes me in any CGC grade.

Historically over a long period of time all the ASM keys keep going up even the common ones from 1980 to now.  Everyone likes to compare prices to COVID, but that isnt what most should look at over the long haul.  Trends over 5+ years or more is better.  Of course I am assuming you point is the reholder scam might be effecting these prices, but I just think its just a common book going for what t should be going for in 2024.  IMO if the reholder scam really hurt this book the prices I feel auction final sales would be 20-30% lower than that.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 1/22/2024 at 7:22 PM, BrashL said:

How about answer one of my questions for once. Do you agree the slab is substandard and no longer best in the industry?  Let’s start there. 

Okay 

I think this version of the CGC case is the best version they have come out with so far of the 3 generations.  Is it substandard? No.

Can it be improved upon?  Of course.

All companies are supposed to be constantly striving for ever evolving ways to innovate a better experience or product for the customer.

Best in the Industry?  Yes, I personally feel CGC's case is the best in the industry.  Now some will disagree, and that's fine.  However I think most of the hobby would vote CGC over Voldemort if you take a poll. 

I do not think CGC needs a brand new case from scratch.  Some people here think it can done like magic, and dont understand a new case process from scratch would take years to complete and implement.  Now would a slight modification be a good idea? Sure.  Some boardies have posted some interesting ideas.  Just keep in mind that it would probably lead to a price increase, and then you would have some of the people who want a case change of some kind then complain about the new pricing     So it's a balancing act.

[sledgehammer]

On 1/22/2024 at 8:07 PM, wiparker824 said:

 

Kind of low for these books even if you add in CL’s 3% buyer premium. 

90 day GPA is $2688 for direct (8 sales), with the last sale being on HA 1/16 for $2760

90 day GPA is $2524 (only 2 sales) for newsstand with the last sale being on HA on 1/16 for $2640

Even so 4287881001 was the newsstand cert that isn’t on the list but is on the same submission as 4287881003 which is on the list and that’s the book that went for $200 more than the direct tonight. So I don’t know. 

You might want to take a look at what a horror show the cover of the book that sold on January 16th before you judge. It's a HORRIBLE miscut.

This WHITE page newsstand sale was a big collapse from what the vast majority of sales on GPA were last year.

How can we value any data, when a 9.8 reported $1,860 newsstand sale last July 29th, was this book, graded last year, with no mention of it being a newsstand in the notes?

https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/4235257002/ 

[wiparker824]

On 1/23/2024 at 4:23 AM, NewWorldOrder said:

Unless they changed their policy in the last month or so I assumed you can still save on CL’s 3% buyer premium if you pay by check.

The fact this book even sells for $1k still amazes me in any CGC grade.

Historically over a long period of time all the ASM keys keep going up even the common ones from 1980 to now.  Everyone likes to compare prices to COVID, but that isnt what most should look at over the long haul.  Trends over 5+ years or more is better.  Of course I am assuming you point is the reholder scam might be effecting these prices, but I just think its just a common book going for what t should be going for in 2024.  IMO if the reholder scam really hurt this book the prices I feel auction final sales would be 20-30% lower than that.

I’m not comparing to Covid prices, that’s why I presented the 90 day averages and the last sale price. If I was comparing to Covid prices these would be insanely low since these books were hitting $5,800 in the Covid peak. But again I wasn’t, and there’s no point in doing that so I’m not sure why you’re bringing that up. 

And also $2100 is 20-30% lower than the 90 day average and the last sale. Not sure why it needs to be an additional 20-30% lower than that but okay. I’m guessing if the next one hits that you’ll move the goalposts again. 

[lostboys]

 

 

 

Does anyone else find it odd that no one is mentioning UF4 or TWD1...these books were pretty damn hot during the pandemic.

 

 

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/23/2024 at 8:36 AM, lostboys said:

 

 

 

Does anyone else find it odd that no one is mentioning UF4 or TWD1...these books were pretty damn hot during the pandemic.

 

 

 

The scammer didn’t seem to target these books 

[wiparker824]

On 1/23/2024 at 5:08 AM, sledgehammer said:

You might want to take a look at what a horror show the cover of the book that sold on January 16th before you judge. It's a HORRIBLE miscut.

This WHITE page newsstand sale was a big collapse from what the vast majority of sales on GPA were last year.

How can we value any data, when a 9.8 reported $1,860 newsstand sale last July 29th, was this book, graded last year, with no mention of it being a newsstand in the notes?

https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/4235257002/ 

Yeah I think in general when you own over 10% of the market on 9.8 you have the ability to manipulate the market a bit so looking back at the 12M average and lows that include this person’s books is already problematic. I did see that sale from last July and thought the same. I also looked up the low for the direct in the past few years which was $2,000 sold on July 16 of 2023 and I can see why the seller took 2,000 for it. It wasn’t on the list but it does look like one of the uglier 9.8’s I’ve seen, not white pages and a piece of the corner is torn and dangling off: https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/4253803001/

In any case, we will see if this book in 9.8 flattens out or continues downward.