ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[CJ Design]

Comicwhiz has done incredible work. Bravo. I am still perplexed about the graders notes on the 9.8's

,,,and still wondering about high end pin-up issues...

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 1/27/2024 at 7:42 PM, comicwiz said:

Yes, I am only posting books on the list.

The question is have you seen swaps that have not been included on the list?

[drotto]

On 1/28/2024 at 11:23 AM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

The question is have you seen swaps that have not been included on the list?

Also have we identified the genuine books that belong in those cases? I am sure they were resubmitted (possible multiple times), where are they now?

[comeaux]

On 1/27/2024 at 9:52 PM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

 

• Is there really evidence that the perpetrator may have had an unusual level of access (or even been a CGC employee), or is that just conspiracy theory material?

Well there is no admission from CGC but as has been mentioned several times in this thread, in fact it was mentioned on the previous page on bullet point 3 & 4 that:

3) He was able to get an astronomically high number of 9.8's that included grader's notes (and all saying the same thing), when 9.8's almost never have grader's notes

4) The turnaround times for getting many of his books graded was unrealistically fast

There are more precise details related to these two anomalies throughout the thread but this is just a snapshot. 

[comicwiz]

ASM 129 9.0 that we notice a change when it reappears for sale date 5/20/2020

Certification: 1028057001

Beginning first with a cert look-up for posterity:

Certification: 1028057001
Amazing Spider-Man, The (1963) #129 CGC 9.0

Cert: 1028057001 | 4/8/2011 | $735 - pic isn't great, but the sale was mined accurately to this cert, and you can see enough of the top edge, as well as the last five-digits of the cert to confirm

↳
Cert: 1028057001 | 6/3/2020 | $1,775 - this is where we notice a change of the book inside, most easy to ascertain difference is comics code stamp is cut off on the book seen in the previous listing from 2011, and when it reappears here, it's a full (no cropped) stamp, and overall, there's more head above the MCG banner (see comparison pics at the end of this summary).

↳
Cert: 1028057001 [5/20/2020] - $1,800

AddAdditional notes: comparison pics

Edited January 28 by comicwiz

[comicjel]

On 1/27/2024 at 7:40 PM, comicwiz said:

With the following example, an Avengers 57 CGC 9.4 has a different book inside the holder, noticed from the photos of the listing on sale date 1/15/2023

Certification: 0966088004

Begnning first with the cert look-up:

Cert: 0966088004 | 5/2/2017 | $2,300

↳

Cert: 0966088004 [1/15/2023] - $3,050 (Changes noticed here - easiest to ascertain: front cover - staple placement on front cover, colour breaking creases along top edge; back cover - namely, brown spot stain on back across from Rockwell on outer edge, heavy dust shadowing along top edge, and traveling along the entire spine. 

This is the first known book to be swapped without getting a custom label, right?

However, it has been reholdered - I guess the old fashion way... maybe through a cracked case.

[comicwiz]

On 1/28/2024 at 11:23 AM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

The question is have you seen swaps that have not been included on the list?

Yes, that list is being compiled separately as I'm sifting through each record more closely.

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 1/28/2024 at 10:33 AM, drotto said:

where are they now?

[comicjel]

On 1/28/2024 at 11:48 AM, comicwiz said:

Yes, that list is being compiled separately as I'm sifting through each record more closely.

Curious if you (or anyone) has seen a swapped book from a holder that does not appear to have been reholdered?

I ask because I wonder if that may be happening with some of the books from his original submissions that are not on the "list" and were instead just sold after being graded. 

[comicwiz]

On 1/28/2024 at 11:52 AM, comicjel said:

Curious if you (or anyone) has seen a swapped book from a holder that does not appear to have been reholdered?

I ask because I wonder if that may be happening with some of the books from his original submissions that are not on the "list" and were instead just sold after being graded. 

I think we need to be cautious about making any determinations or assessments of what the "tells" are for swaps. I know the custom labels have been touted as one, the grades (9.8's) as well, but the problem is that there's a lot of variability, and really wierd things happening with books disappearing altogether, including certs that vanished from books that seemingly dropped off the face of the earth. We need a detailed explanation and elaboration from CGC to answer your question.

Edited January 29 by comicwiz

[sledgehammer]

Does anyone know for sure, how many reasons there are that a cert # search would result in grade category "REJECT"?

How long has it been since they eliminated the minimum quantity for pre screen?  https://www.cgccomics.com/submit/services-fees/cgc-grading/

I saw a photo on a very relevant online site, of an ASM 300 9.8 ( not on the list), dated on the site as 11/19/20 of this cert #      3745003002

ASM 300  9.8   graded 11/11/20.

grader's notes, as of today, are "small light creasing center of front cover"

 

Another book in that submission is cert #  3745003001

11/11/20

ASM 300  grade: REJECT

grader's notes are  "spine stress lines break color"

I find that note interesting, considering how many times I'm seeing that exact note, on other 9.8 books on submissions that include books on the list.

 

 

Edited January 28 by sledgehammer

[comicjel]

On 1/28/2024 at 11:56 AM, comicwiz said:

I think we need to be cautious about making any determinations or assessments of what the "tells" are for swaps. I know the custom labels have been one, the grades (9.8's) but the problem is that there's a lot of really wierd things happening with books disappearing altogether, including certs that vanished from books that dropped off the fact of the earth. We need a detailed level of elaboration from CGC's end.

I am sure you thought of this, but one way books / certs can disappear is by their label being turned back in to CGC.

One aspect of this scam that might be happening is that once the scammer finds a nice book to use in the scam (either as the master 9.8 book or as the inferior swap-out book), if either of those books are "starting" in an old style inner well holder, they first need to get them into newer type inner well holders, before they can start using them in the scam - as such, there may be a lot of loose older style labels being returned to CGC by the scammer, and effectively being expunged from CGCs records (especially the inferior book original labels).  

Edited January 28 by comicjel
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[comicjel]

On 1/28/2024 at 12:19 PM, sledgehammer said:

Does anyone know for sure, how many reasons there are that a cert # search would result in grade category "REJECT"?

How long has it been since they eliminated the minimum quantity for pre screen?  https://www.cgccomics.com/submit/services-fees/cgc-grading/

I saw a photo on a very relevant online site, of an ASM 300 9.8 ( not on the list), dated on the site as 11/19/20 of this cert #      3745003002

ASM 300  9.8   graded 11/11/20.

grader's notes, as of today, are "small light creasing center of front cover"

 

Another book in that submission is cert #  3745003001

11/11/20

ASM 300  grade: REJECT

grader's notes are  "spine stress lines break color"

I find that note interesting, considering how many times I'm seeing that exact note, on other 9.8 books on submissions that include books on the list.

 

 

I am pretty sure that is a "screened" book - being rejected for whatever grade is being screened for (prob 9.8).

It has been a while, but I remember reviewing grading notes on rejected screened books.

 

[sledgehammer]

On 1/28/2024 at 11:21 AM, comicjel said:

One aspect of this scam that might be happening is that once the scammer finds a nice book to use in the scam (either as the master 9.8 book or as the inferior swap-out book), if either of those books are "starting" in an old style inner well holder, they first need to get them into newer type inner well holders, before they can start using them in the scam - as such, there may be a lot of loose older style labels being returned to CGC by the scammer, and effectively being expunged from CGCs records.  

I don't think that it is only that. I found a quantity of 6, ASM 300 9.8 submission from late 2020, that I am positive is tied to the store, circumstantially.

A few of those cert #s are now "poof".

[sledgehammer]

On 1/28/2024 at 11:25 AM, comicjel said:

I am pretty sure that is a "screened" book - being rejected for whatever grade is being screened for (prob 9.8).

It has been a while, but I remember reviewing grading notes on rejected screened books.

 

In my mind, it is one more indicator that someone at CGC was manipulating things for him.

[comicjel]

On 1/28/2024 at 12:25 PM, sledgehammer said:

I don't think that it is only that. I found a quantity of 6, ASM 300 9.8 submission from late 2020, that I am positive is tied to the store, circumstantially.

A few of those cert #s are now "poof".

Strange!?!

[Nick Furious]

On 1/28/2024 at 11:19 AM, sledgehammer said:

grader's notes are  "spine stress lines break color"

I find that note interesting, considering how many times I'm seeing that exact note, on other 9.8 books on submissions that include books on the list.

That's going to become like a scarlet letter for buyers in the know.  Check the grader notes on 9.8's, stay away if it says, "spine stress lines break color".  

[comeaux]

[shadroch]

I'm wondering if that is an identifying phrase, 

[Yorick]

On 1/28/2024 at 9:21 AM, comicjel said:

there may be a lot of loose older style labels being returned to CGC by the scammer

I believe that would draw attention to the scammer by CGC (unless there was someone on the inside that needed those notes to transfer to the new certification).  I cannot imagine any reason for the scammer to return labels.  Having MORE labels creates more opportunity for the scamming.