ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[ADAMANTIUM]

I shouldn't have called it "chump" change, in any "pr" funds that is still very generous given the impact and scope of things, I just do remain hopeful that it makes sense to the powers that be at CGC, but could be why they haven't made a blanket statement as to "compensation" and that maybe relying on the same word of mouth for those affected will be in good Faith. 

I hope anyway  

Edited January 29 by ADAMANTIUM

[comicwiz]

 

On 1/29/2024 at 1:07 PM, Mdesimone said:

 Because I purchased it in 2019 for 1645 dollars including tax and shipping. Gpa is around 3000 today, the next part to the receipt is that I bought it on eBay , and they removed it. I have no way of getting this receipt, and finally why bother saying you will be fairly compensated for any losses on the site and in a YouTube video then tell me we are working on how we will compensate you but give me a receipt so we can move forward with what we want to do…

I for one am grateful you have posted what you have on this matter. It makes all the voluntary work I did in researching this incident thus far worthwhile. What many may not realize is there are unusual data gaps in some of the ways we track the sales history on these impacted books. For this reason alone, making an offer of compensation that appears contingent on a purchase reciept introduces barriers that on the surface do not seem "fair." Your situation also provides a textbook example of why replacement cost is a better suited instrument to use for redress such as this incident is only beginning to reveal. If there is any advice I might impart, try to find an accredited third-party appraiser who can provide you an impartial value opinion. While this is something I could assist with, and would offer this at no charge, I do not want to offer this in any way to influence your decision, however I need to offer this advice as it will give you the strongest position in terms of being compensated. What I bring to the table are my credentials as a published Overstreet Price Guide Advisor as well as a CPPAG Accredited Appraiser designation, examined on Code of Ethics, Standards & Practices modelled after Uniform Standards of Professional Appraisal Practice (USPAP). You will not get this combined experience anywhere else, and it's become quite evident that CGC needs to consider some seperation in their manner of offering redress here.

Edited January 29 by comicwiz

[MasterChief]

On 1/29/2024 at 8:30 AM, awe4one said:

Forgive me for asking but I don’t have time to read through 377 pages. What exactly happened here? Did a person break out a slab and replace a comic before resealing a slab or did someone have a replacement slab and placed a comic in it with the label? I know whenever I broke out a comic from a slab you would know it. I know this topic has probably evolved from the first post so I don’t want to distract from the discussion. If you can message me with an explanation it would be appreciated.

Jim

Hey, Jim

This is one of the best posts in the thread. Especially for those late to the party. Kinda a reader's digest version...

 

 

 

Edited January 29 by MasterChief

[topcat54]

ok I was looking back on the boards at different threads and ran across this notice the 3rd one down

[topcat54]

I was also wondering why this book was not on the list? #  3786339003

 

[davidpg]

As all these books are readily available, I think CGC should simply replace any affected books someone has with a true copy in grade regardless of current market value.  FMV at the moment might be higher or lower that what the person paid for the book...nobody's problem except CGC.  

[thunsicker]

On 1/29/2024 at 1:17 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Just spit-balling but what about people who paid at the height of the market, who's books are now worth less? My inclination of the benefit of the doubt with CGC, is if you bought at the height under the understanding that the CGC label was legit, you'd still get compensated....

I'm not sure that it is the current FMV or like insurance at all, if it is only worth $3000, but you bought it for 5k, I would want the 5k if cgc has any true guarantee  

Right.  When people starting saying Fair Market Value the instance of buying at 2021 prices was brought up.  I would assume if you bought at 1650 and current GPA or GoCollect is 3000 they would give you the 3000.   I would hope the ask for the receipt is in case the movement is the opposite direction.  Though to be honest if they just said they would pay out GPA 90 day average or GoCollect fair market value people who wanted another copy could conceivably go out and buy one in the current market whether the market has gone up or down.  The books manipulated in this way aren’t exactly scarce are they?  (Other than MJ inserts I guess?  No idea, they aren’t in my focus, though to be honest none of the books manipulated in this way are in my focus as far as I know.)

[WernerVonDoom]

Unfortunately, if CGC sticks with their guarantee, they will be reimbursing the lowest amount of these three things: 1) declared value on submittal, 2) FMV, or 3) purchase price.

Let's hope they do the right thing and don't stick to this and go with replacement value in all cases.

[davidpg]

Now THIS would be a bad PR move.  CGC should offer a replacement physical book of the cash equivalent at the moment of the agreement.  Maybe throw in a free submission or two as well as a goodwill gesture.

[awe4one]

Again, a little late to the party, how does CGC know which slabs may be affected?
 

Jim

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/29/2024 at 1:50 PM, awe4one said:

Again, a little late to the party, how does CGC know which slabs may be affected?
 

Jim

I'm not sure that you're missing much, here is the official statement, beyond that we have thoughts to a submitter seller 

This is what cgc has stated though, I haven't reread over it on a while

 

 

 

 

[drotto]

On 1/29/2024 at 1:30 PM, awe4one said:

Forgive me for asking but I don’t have time to read through 377 pages. What exactly happened here? Did a person break out a slab and replace a comic before resealing a slab or did someone have a replacement slab and placed a comic in it with the label? I know whenever I broke out a comic from a slab you would know it. I know this topic has probably evolved from the first post so I don’t want to distract from the discussion. If you can message me with an explanation it would be appreciated.

Jim

In a nutshell, what is believed to have happened.

1. Scammer had two or more of the same book, one very high grade, one either lower grade, qualified grade like missing MVS, or a more costly varient like Mark Jewlers insert, or newsstand.

2. They open the otter case for the high grade that does either very little damage, no apparent damage, or causes damage that does not look like tampering, and puts the cheaper lower grade or qualified book into the high grade case. At no point does it look like the scammer touched the inner wells.

3. They send that cheaper book, now in the higher graded case into CGC for a reholder and/or custom label. They also ask CGC to note they missed the book was a newsstand or MJI and to change the new label to reflect that when possible. The maintains the grade, and the legitimate certificate number.

4. CGC reholders the book, and the books maintains the higher grade, and any special label changes are added. 

5. Scammer sells the now mislabeled book with the incorrect label. That CGC has put in a nice new case.

6. Scammer resubmits the high grade book as a new submission, and gets the legitimate book with a new certificate number and new high grade.

7. Scammer either now sells that legit book, or uses the case again in the manner described. In theory they can just keep cycling that high grade book for limitless legitimate labels to swap.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/29/2024 at 1:50 PM, awe4one said:

Again, a little late to the party, how does CGC know which slabs may be affected?
 

Jim

 

On 1/29/2024 at 1:59 PM, drotto said:

In a nutshell, what is believed to have happened.

1. Scammer had two or more of the same book, one very high grade, one either lower grade, qualified grade like missing MVS, or a more costly varient like Mark Jewlers insert, or newsstand.

2. They open the otter case for the high grade that does either very little damage, no apparent damage, or causes damage that does not look like tampering, and puts the cheaper lower grade or qualified book into the high grade case. At no point does it look like the scammer touched the inner wells.

3. They send that cheaper book, now in the higher graded case into CGC for a reholder and/or custom label. They also ask CGC to note they missed the book was a newsstand or MJI and to change the new label to reflect that when possible. The maintains the grade, and the legitimate certificate number.

4. CGC reholders the book, and the books maintains the higher grade, and any special label changes are added. 

5. Scammer sells the now mislabeled book with the incorrect label. That CGC has put in a nice new case.

6. Scammer resubmits the high grade book as a new submission, and gets the legitimate book with a new certificate number and new high grade.

7. Scammer either now sells that legit book, or uses the case again in the manner described. In theory they can just keep cycling that high grade book for limitless legitimate labels to swap.

Basically all that, but there was a common denominator between the slabs, of a certain submitter, that called into question all of his submissions. That is how they narrowed it down to tree fiddy in slabs  

 

[awe4one]

But how do they get through the inner slab? It’s sealed?

You can break the plastic outer cover but the comic is still sealed in another seal.
 

Jim

Edited January 29 by awe4one

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/29/2024 at 2:17 PM, awe4one said:

But how do they get through the inner slab? It’s sealed?

You can break the plastic outer cover but the comic is still sealed in another seal.
 

Jim

The thought is...

Crack a slab enough to pull out inner well replace with other inner well from other slab, send in as reholder or mechanical errors, cgc not noticing the tamper or that book looks different than the assigned grade and going through with the reholder.

Cgc essentially missed the tampering and was resealing it for the individual among other stuff, under the guise of reholders, even directs became Newsstand and etc things obvious that cgc missed

Edited January 29 by ADAMANTIUM

[comicjel]

On 1/29/2024 at 2:31 PM, davidpg said:

Now THIS would be a bad PR move.  CGC should offer a replacement physical book of the cash equivalent at the moment of the agreement.  Maybe throw in a free submission or two as well as a goodwill gesture.

It's easy for me to say, because I do not have any of those books in play, but put me in the camp (for now!) that CGC will eventually do right with the compensation - my nickel is that they will end up paying the higher of the purchase price or FMV plus something more for the trouble.  

Their absolute goal is that the last few pages of this thread will be filled with testimonies of happy "compensation" recipients... maybe I am a dreamer, but I have known Matt for decades, and if he has the final call on this, all those that went to the trouble of sending their books in will be taken care of.   

[drotto]

On 1/29/2024 at 3:17 PM, awe4one said:

But how do they get through the inner slab? It’s sealed?

You can break the plastic outer cover but the comic is still sealed in another seal.
 

Jim

They never touched the inner well.  They pulled the books out of the outer hard case, the remained in the inner well. That new book still in the well was then inserted into the partially cracked open hard case.  We are not 100% how it was done, but there are a few likely methods that have been demonstrated. 

[awe4one]

On 1/29/2024 at 2:29 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

The thought is...

Crack a slab enough to pull out inner well replace with other inner well from other slab, send end as reholder of mechanical errors, cgc not noticing the tamper or that book looks different than the assigned grade and going through with the reholder.

Cgc essentially missed the tampering and was resealing it for the individual among other stuff, under the guide of reholders, even directs became Newsstand and etc things obvious that cgc missed

How do you get the label out of the inner slab?
 

Jim

[sledgehammer]

On 1/29/2024 at 2:35 PM, awe4one said:

How do you get the label out of the inner slab?
 

Jim

how many of the 377 pages have you read so far?

[drotto]

On 1/29/2024 at 3:35 PM, awe4one said:

How do you get the label out of the inner slab?
 

Jim

In the current generation slabs, the label is not attached to the inner well.  It sits in a separate compartment all by itself.