ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Telegan]

For anyone interested, Swagglehaus interviews Paul Lesko :

 

 

[Microchip]

On 2/7/2024 at 11:11 AM, Telegan said:

For anyone interested, Swagglehaus interviews Paul Lesko :

 

 

Highlights, jump into the 10.00 mark, "this case as a close to a slam dunk as you can get".

[paqart]

On 2/6/2024 at 6:04 PM, agamoto said:

Finally! A lawyer in our midst!

I've been harping on CGC to bring the FBI into this for hundreds of freakin' pages, which I know they absolutely could do with a phone call if they wanted to.

The problem with those who actually would like to see some *criminal* justice here is that certified collectibles group already has a track record where no criminal investigation takes place, and the whole messy incident winds up locked down in secrecy via settlement agreement.

NGC, CGC's sister company, went through these paces with a fellow named Richard Albright over on the collector coin side of things. Everything CGC has filed thus far in this case mirrors what they did in that one. See: Provenance NGC LLC v. Albright, 1:23-cv-00406

That suit was settled last August. We've yet to see Mr. Albright face any criminal charges for wire fraud. 

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/11938/

My fear is history repeating itself.

While I understand it's still possible charges could drop before any SoL expiry, is it not unusual CGC would be asking victims of this fraud to send their books/evidence in to CGC for their review instead of suggesting those victims reach out to local/state or federal law enforcement agents to at least file a complaint? Wouldn't having all of that evidence fumbling through the multiple hands (heck, even possibly some alleged bad employees who walk out with books!) at CGC not create a problem for any future criminal investigation and prosecution? 

There is no reason victims of the fraud can't call the FBI themselves.

[Nick Furious]

On 2/6/2024 at 7:45 PM, paqart said:

There is no reason victims of the fraud can't call the FBI themselves.

How could that even compare to CGC taking their accumulated investigation research to the FBI?  If it's agreed that this issue should go to the FBI, then it should go to them through CGC.  

[paqart]

On 2/6/2024 at 9:20 PM, Nick Furious said:

How could that even compare to CGC taking their accumulated investigation research to the FBI?  If it's agreed that this issue should go to the FBI, then it should go to them through CGC.  

I disagree on "should." It "can" but there is no reason it has to. Also, one could argue that it "shouldn't" go through CGC. The reason is that the most easily identified victims are the collectors or dealers who bought the counterfeits, not CGC. CGC did suffer reputational harm, but they are dealing with that via their civil lawsuit. If a criminnal case emerges from customer complaints, all of CGC's research will still land on the desks of law enforcement. CGC does not have to initiate a case for that to happen.

[comicwiz]

As I'm slowly going through the mined data for the eBay accounts alleged to be connected to the employees lawsuit, I notice something.

We now have a note that states the following:

If the information displayed above is incorrect or does not match the collectible you are verifying, or if you believe that you have a counterfeit or tampered CGC holder, please contact Submissions@CGCcomics.com. To learn more about counterfeit or tampered CGC holders, click here.

This notation appears below the photos of the book under CGC Cert #: 4355451009

Now, take a moment to look at the cert screenshot below. Look at the notes. Then look at the book.

Seller: omni_collector Cert: 4355451009 [01/07/2024] - $575

[comeaux]

I was on a brief vacation for making the CGC natives restless which was related to posting a meme that has been posted several times before but I included CGC name & name of alleged fraudster. Meanwhile the head CGC cheerleader can post about things he’s done with CGC that are a violation of CGC policy but gets a pass cause he submits a 100 books a week. As stated below:

“For reholder, I don’t care about the broken case, I just send in the label & book and CGC reholder's my book, no problems” 

in any case, to answer a question about Pacer, it’s easy to sign up and almost free. You are charged 10 cents a page and billed quarterly, if your quarterly bill is less than $30 then you are not charged. I downloaded most of the relevant documents to this CGC disaster and I think I’m at a total of $5 or $6 

in my opinion, it’s beneficial for all citizens to have a Pacer account, download a digital copy of Federal Rules of Civil Procedure (FRCP), a digital copy of United States Code (USC) and the Civil Code of your state. 20 years ago I used to have a Westlaw account but I think you now have to be an attorney to have Westlaw, not sure but it was very beneficial to destroy a bonehead law firm as a Pro Se litigant & was well worth its weight in gold. I learned a long time ago that just because someone is an attorney, doesn’t mean they’re competent. 
 

The CGC attorneys in this current filing for Cause of Action 

if someone wants the entire CGC complaint uploaded here, let me know and I’ll do so if I can post the entire PDF, not sure if it’s allowed or perhaps it may upset the CGC natives and be my last strike 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 7 by comeaux

[comeaux]

Count 5, 6 & 7 are the first to be dismissed followed by most others for several reasons. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 2/6/2024 at 7:26 PM, comeaux said:

as a Pro Se litigant

[AJD]

On 2/7/2024 at 3:01 AM, Gonzimodo said:

This is one of my biggest pet peeves in life.  Someone will say "about" or "approximately" followed by a very specific number.  JUST ROUND IT SO YOUR STATEMENT MAKES MORE SENSE!!! 

Sorry, everyone, back to business...

Yes, that happens approximately 64.732% of the time

[comicjel]

On 2/6/2024 at 4:43 PM, WolverineX said:

what makes you say that

The fact that it was graded 9.8 in 2011 and is now in a different holder than it was in 2011 (i.e. reholdered)... and that it is one of the books that the scammer liked to swap out through the reholder scam.

Lastly, it looks a little loosely graded IMO for a 9.8 - a lot of dirt on back cover and lower spine corner looks soft.

Just has a lot of characteristics that the scammers inferior reholder books had.

Maybe not 99% but a higher percent than most of us would have likely thought before this scam was uncovered. 

 

 

 

[WolverineX]

On 2/6/2024 at 11:37 PM, comicjel said:

The fact that it was graded 9.8 in 2011 and is now in a different holder than it was in 2011 (i.e. reholdered)... and that it is one of the books that the scammer liked to swap out through the reholder scam.

Lastly, it looks a little loosely graded IMO for a 9.8 - a lot of dirt on back cover and lower spine corner looks soft.

Just has a lot of characteristics that the scammers inferior reholder books had.

Maybe not 99% but a higher percent than most of us would have likely thought before this scam was uncovered. 

 

 

 

everything is in question now...

[paqart]

On 2/6/2024 at 10:19 PM, comicwiz said:

As I'm slowly going through the mined data for the eBay accounts alleged to be connected to the employees lawsuit, I notice something.

We now have a note that states the following:

If the information displayed above is incorrect or does not match the collectible you are verifying, or if you believe that you have a counterfeit or tampered CGC holder, please contact Submissions@CGCcomics.com. To learn more about counterfeit or tampered CGC holders, click here.

This notation appears below the photos of the book under CGC Cert #: 4355451009

Now, take a moment to look at the cert screenshot below. Look at the notes. Then look at the book.

 

 

 

Seller: omni_collector Cert: 4355451009 [01/07/2024] - $575

 

Looks like a 1.8 to me.

[comicjel]

On 2/6/2024 at 11:38 PM, WolverineX said:

everything is in question now...

Agreed!

But when you look at the 350 list, there were clearly certain books that were targeted more than others... ASM 194, 238, 252, 300 among them.

Also, reholdered books need to be viewed with more skepticism now (especially 9.8 reholders).

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 2/6/2024 at 8:29 PM, paqart said:

I disagree on "should." It "can" but there is no reason it has to. Also, one could argue that it "shouldn't" go through CGC. The reason is that the most easily identified victims are the collectors or dealers who bought the counterfeits, not CGC. CGC did suffer reputational harm, but they are dealing with that via their civil lawsuit. If a criminnal case emerges from customer complaints, all of CGC's research will still land on the desks of law enforcement. CGC does not have to initiate a case for that to happen.

Exactly. Which is why it is near certain it will never happen.  CGC is banking on this, literally and figuratively. They would much rather pay-off any known victims that send their books back in, and destroy the evidence in the process. NO single victim that could file a credible criminal complaint is out more than a few thousand, maybe 5 figures in a few instances, and they don't know that for certain without cracking it themselves or sending it in to CGC. The perp will never see the inside of a criminal court. This is a romantic notion borne from watching too many courtroom dramas on TV.  The individual victims are spread far and wide, across states, so local and state authorities won't bother. the feds won't bother either, because no one that comes to them can name any of the other victims to join the complaint, and I seriously doubt they can convince a Fed to read 396 pages of this thread to get an inkling of the crime. Only CGC is in a position to make that happen, and they are possibly the LAST entity on earth that would feel compelled to do so. There's literally nothing in it for them, and probably only more embarrassment. 

[AJD]

Looking at this again:

If that has been prepared as carefully as I would hope legal documents are prepared, it reads as if the 2021 number (253) is 'approximate', while the others for later years are exact. Or is it an error, and they meant 'approximately 253, 345 and 329 submissions in 2021, 2022 and 2023 respectively'?

Edited February 7 by AJD

[agamoto]

On 2/6/2024 at 4:11 PM, Telegan said:

For anyone interested, Swagglehaus interviews Paul Lesko :

 

 

@6:14 ... Yeah, I have to wonder if Lasko actually gets it. The defendents weren't inserting just any ol' comic into cases with higher grades and selling them off as legitimately graded CGC slabs. No, the defendents were buying legitimate lower-graded CGC books, and either swapping the labels with the higher-grade encased books or swapping the comics *still in their CGC sealed inner sleeves*, and then sending those frankensteins into CGC for CGC to recertify and present with a new label and case. What the defendents sold to consumers was not a counterfeit. It was a legitimately recertififed/reholdered CGC slabbed book. Did the defendents perpetrate fraud against CGC in order to get that result? I personally think so, but I also think CGC must bear some responsibility for not actually regrading the books. Did the defendents break terms and conditions with CGC on submission? If you look at CGC's terms and conditions section 3, I would argue that they did not, since no alteration of the comic itself occured. There's nothing in the language there about altering the CGC case itself, the label or the inner sleeve. Perhaps the plaintiff understands this, which is why they inserted the snippet indicating they believe the defendent also side-stepped the "4th step" and was selling books they had swapped out w/o sending in for recert. That's a different story and a better argument for direct manipulation/tampering/counterfeiting. Far as I can tell, they present ZERO evidence that's the case though.

@8:35 Mr. Lasko confirms that he doesn't get what's actually going on. CGC IS the last to touch the comic as the recertification/reholdering process. The process, as CGC itself defines it, involves removing the comic from its hard plastic case AND its inner sleeve, given a rudimentary inspection, and then inserted into a new sleeve and case w/ label. From that point forward, the comic, nor it's label, as far as anyone can tell, is never removed from the new CGC case.

@17:40 - 2000 books submitted under C.B.S. account... I'd love to know exactly how CGC is separating the books sent in by Zanello/Riva from the books sent in by Comic Book Station if they're all under the same account? How could CGC possibly know the difference from their end who sent in what? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Doesn't make a lot of sense that CBS isn't a party named as a defendent either, especially given the number of listed books on their insta and facebook pages, the thanksgiving pics, and of course the heat gun pic.

@36:00 - Giving credit to the CGC lawyers for doing such a great job... I'll be brutally honest here. Whatever CGC paid Kroll or the outside counsel involved in gathering all the info needed to dump into this complaint, it was probably way too much. The CGC board detectives, i.e. @comicwiz and his posse, did most of the hard work digging through the historical sales records to identify the different sellers, scouring over book scans to find the obvious, and so obvious, swaps, etc. Dozens upon dozens of man hours of uncompensated research. This complaint just regurgitates a lot of that work, so maybe don't pat the legal eagles too hard on the back.

Honestly, I would be very  surprised if there were not a half a dozen lawyers scrambling to be the first to file a class action suit as we speak.

[sledgehammer]

On 2/6/2024 at 10:38 PM, WolverineX said:

On 2/6/2024 at 10:37 PM, comicjel said:

The fact that it was graded 9.8 in 2011 and is now in a different holder than it was in 2011 (i.e. reholdered)... and that it is one of the books that the scammer liked to swap out through the reholder scam.

Lastly, it looks a little loosely graded IMO for a 9.8 - a lot of dirt on back cover and lower spine corner looks soft.

Just has a lot of characteristics that the scammers inferior reholder books had.

Maybe not 99% but a higher percent than most of us would have likely thought before this scam was uncovered. 

 

 

 

everything is in question now...

I don't think everything is quite as in question as that ebay sale is.

It smells like somebody got rid of it RIGHT NOW.

It's exactly the kind of situation to absolutely be on the look out for before you would buy something, and something everybody should make note of in new listings.

A book graded 13 years ago, in a brand new holder, that may easily  now NOT be a 9.8

Plus, no bidding now that I can view, to see if somebody actually popped the bin,

A very easy way to launder responsibility, or custody.

[sledgehammer]

On 2/6/2024 at 9:19 PM, comicwiz said:

As I'm slowly going through the mined data for the eBay accounts alleged to be connected to the employees lawsuit, I notice something.

We now have a note that states the following:

If the information displayed above is incorrect or does not match the collectible you are verifying, or if you believe that you have a counterfeit or tampered CGC holder, please contact Submissions@CGCcomics.com. To learn more about counterfeit or tampered CGC holders, click here.

This notation appears below the photos of the book under CGC Cert #: 4355451009

[comicwiz]

Information withheld.

Edited February 16 by comicwiz