ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[HighGrade]

On 2/15/2024 at 1:18 AM, comicjel said:

I was concerned that we would get to this point - you could see it coming down the pike a mile away as the 350 list was not increasing - CGC was always going to draw the line at the reholdered books.

I get that CGC can not compensate for every CGC comic that has ever been graded and then tampered with (and "not" reholdered) - there would be no way to manage that.

I may be wrong, but I suspect that CGC would like to compensate collectors for the portion of the 2,000 books that were swapped by "these" scammers (I know that Matt would want that done), but CGC is likely concerned about creating a precedent of compensating tampered non-reholdered books for the whole population of comics that they have ever graded. 

I do think that they could (and should) separately carve out the 2,000 or so books that were graded by these scammers, and provide compensation if it can be shown that the scammers swapped the books and did not leave a reasonably noticeable trace on the outside holder, since IMO, if CGC had better quality control with the reholdering, they would have caught them and banned them well before they could successfully grade 2,000 books.  The precedent, therefore, would be that CGC is compensating for these books because they did not catch their reholdering scam sooner and ban them - and go ahead and say that these 2,000 books are being singled out for just this reason.  It would be good PR, and the right thing to do. 

As an aside, If CGC is determining that scammers can tamper with their cases without leaving a "reasonably" noticeable telltale sign, then the only option, as I see it, is to provide scans of every comic that CGC has ever graded, because even a new holder will not protect the books that have already been graded.   

  

 

Agreed! your last part about scans is what I have been saying is vital, your are right on! But I don't think it's an option, it's a MUST on my checklist to keep up all scans, before reholder and after, old and new! And I'll give them time but they have to go through and put all the images they have, it will make a tremendous difference!

And 100% right It's not only Impossible to cover people who buy counterfeit or tampered books, but no other authentication service does that, UNLESS it was done on their grounds, IE PSA has compensated me on certain issues they did like grading a fake card or damaged 10  I've been happy for the most part...now the grades, who is ever happy about that? so it's not 100% happy customers, lots of angry people toward all graders for everything. LOL

So yeah CGC is covering the swaps that they did only, no way they would cover outside swaps, can you imagine, what would be the criteria? If they show me and I go yeah..see right there, I know this a swap, but johnny come lately is fooled, where would you draw the line on who is responsible? would there be a panel of judges? LOL.  Scammers suck, so I don't just buy a comic/card or coin without doing the investigation, now anything below $300 you're pretty much safe, but a Hulk 181 or Jordan? I'm pulling out the magnifier, checking past sales, not buying a off a person in a dark parking lot, etc..

But could you imagine if they or others offered compensation if your just buy a holder that was manipulated or fake? I am 100% sure manufactures in china could actually produce holders nearly exact replicas security and all for PSA, CGC, PSGS, and put fakes in them. The new holders for cards coming out of china are crazy town, thankfully with the proper eye, there is still something that tips me off, and PSA did update security a few years ago, but it's a battle! PSA has not to my knowledge went after anyone, that is why I was surprised by CGC's move, and very happy someone in the authentication space is doing something!

This is the big reason we are here pushing for MORE security, and we must have all slabbed books keep a complete photo trail, So when CGC reholders any book, they must leave the original slabbed photo up! ALL images MUST be retained and in the cert lookup! so an owner or buyer can see that his book matches those books, if you take down the original and just show the new reholder image, and this happened again or just a mistake happens, it will be noticed FAST, this would have stopped this problem long ago.  This is the only way to go and slowly but surely ALL images of slabbed books need to surface in the cert lookup So now if my buyer see's no photo, and that disclaimer... well they are not going to be confident when other books do have images.

We have a beautiful albeit dysfunctional "sometime" community in comics! We will grow, like it or not, big money brings bigger problems, but we will grow stronger together.

[sledgehammer]

On 2/15/2024 at 12:21 AM, szav said:

Is that ok for the book?  Are they now airtight around all edges without any room to breathe out?  I thought one of the points of the slight openings was so the books could offgas.

Not a paper expert though, maybe it doesn't matter.

I had never heard that. The inner sleeve would also need to be able to do that, right? I never got the impression from one that it could, and I'm staring at a book, only in an inner well, from a second gen slab right now.

Doesn't look like it.

Edited February 15 by sledgehammer

[awakeintheashes]

On 2/15/2024 at 3:51 AM, HighGrade said:

and we must have all slabbed books keep a complete photo trail, So when CGC reholders any book, they must leave the original slabbed photo up! ALL images MUST be retained and in the cert lookup!

Quoted so it doesn’t get lost in the rest of your post. This is one process change that needs to be made immediately. 

[Tec-Tac-Toe]

Is CGC using a hot glue gun to seal slabs on all sides?

[sledgehammer]

My last submission was in January 2023.

The top and bottom are not sealed.

Did the guy that did the heat gun youtube video note anything about using a more recent submission book?

[lostboys]

On 2/15/2024 at 7:26 AM, sledgehammer said:

I had never heard that. The inner sleeve would also need to be able to do that, right? I never got the impression from one that it could, and I'm staring at a book, only in an inner well, from a second gen slab right now.

Doesn't look like it.

I once read here on the board that tests were done long ago to see if the inner well was water proof and theyre not so theyre not air tight.

 

 

[MAR1979]

On 2/14/2024 at 8:12 PM, CGC Mike said:

Unfortunately, counterfeit – and, relatedly, tampered – products have become an issue that many companies and consumers now face. Bad actors seek illegitimate profits by creating knockoffs of well-known, trusted and valuable brands. CGC is one of these targets, and we will take aggressive action to combat counterfeiters and other fraudsters, including through lawsuits, security enhancements and awareness campaigns. We cannot, however, provide compensation to people who purchase counterfeit or tampered products. This would, in effect, render the counterfeit or tampered products as valuable as the real deal, despite CGC having absolutely no involvement in their production.

 The 350 books identified by CGC on 1/3/24 are in a different category because they were submitted to CGC for reholder after being tampered with, and we did not detect the tampering at the time.

 We still want to know about other counterfeit or tampered with CGC holders because we will aggressively pursue these bad actors to the fullest extent of the law. We are committed to taking the appropriate steps to prevent counterfeiting (and tampering), and we will take legal action against those who attempt it.

 CCG strongly advises prospective buyers to do their research and buy from reputable sources. CGC offers the free Verify CGC Certification tool on its websites to help collectors and dealers verify CGC-certified collectibles. In addition, collectors can use the CGC Dealer Locator to find CGC Authorized Dealers.

  

On 2/14/2024 at 10:35 PM, BrashL said:

This is straight from the lawyers. Total abdication of liability and responsibility that we all assumed was part of the guarantee.

This is particularly stunning considering the fact that in their own legal filing they allege that the party they are suing was reselling books directly to consumers. His work was good enough to fool their employees for years, however if Joe Public was fooled in the same way by this same person, tough luck. Buy from a reputable dealer next time. which I guess is no longer Comiclink according to CGC, good to know. 

 

@COMICLINK Not that CGC has singled you out but in effect they are officially informing your potential customers that anyone who has sold a tainted book is not reputable. Therefore by transitive property you are not reputable!  BTW, it's 2024 now, your not providing back scans by default and higher resolution scans is not helping things...

@mycomicshop Same applies to you. Except for the scan part. Actually CGC's message applies to ever seller!  It's not exactly a positive your business models

@gregreece @HighGradeComics

 

Edited February 15 by MAR1979

[sledgehammer]

On 2/15/2024 at 8:04 AM, lostboys said:

I once read here on the board that tests were done long ago to see if the inner well was water proof and theyre not so theyre not air tight.

I would guess that a slab sealed all the way around is not watertight either. probably even less so.

[Nazirite]

Off topic but on a positive note, this situation has encouraged me to attend cons. I look forward to purchasing raw books in person and surprisingly my wife has decided to join me. I have a shipment of E.Gerber Myler 2's and full backs on the way, as well as a pack of microchamber paper. It feels like I'm starting from step one again which is kind of exciting. I will allow my membership to expire this month and use the boards to help educate me more in spotting restoration.  

[Mr Sneeze]

On 2/15/2024 at 9:40 AM, Nazirite said:

Off topic but on a positive note, this situation has encouraged me to attend cons. I look forward to purchasing raw books in person and surprisingly my wife has decided to join me. I have a shipment of E.Gerber Myler 2's and full backs on the way, as well as a pack of microchamber paper. It feels like I'm starting from step one again which is kind of exciting. I will allow my membership to expire this month and use the boards to help educate me more in spotting restoration.  

Educating yourself in any hobby/collectible can only be a good thing. 

[shadroch]

So CGC is warning us about fake books in their slabs, but only feels responsible for the ones they personally helped create?

Edited February 15 by shadroch

[Panda2]

Compensation notwithstanding, someone, be it CGC or @comicwiz, or someone else needs at some point to publish a list of cert #s associated with the scammers, or books that are known to have changed while keeping their cert number.   A black list of sorts.  While the rest of us plebes can do our best to verify the cert numbers using CGC's lookup, it would certainly be useful to have a list of submission numbers to steer clear of - or to have checked by CGC if you own one.  Just a thought...

[MAR1979]

On 2/15/2024 at 10:04 AM, Panda2 said:

Compensation notwithstanding, someone, be it CGC or @comicwiz, or someone else needs at some point to publish a list of cert #s associated with the scammers, or books that are known to have changed while keeping their cert number.   A black list of sorts.  While the rest of us plebes can do our best to verify the cert numbers using CGC's lookup, it would certainly be useful to have a list of submission numbers to steer clear of - or to have checked by CGC if you own one.  Just a thought...

CGC's (IMHO totally weak) message is purchase from "reputable" dealers.  Keep in mind lack of reputable dealers is one of the reasons CGC was formed in the first place. To have their slabs level playing field for buyers and expand the hobby via that trust

According to CGC's newest message any dealer who has sold or every might unknowingly sell a tainted or "counterfeited" or tampered slab is not reputable.   Which means every Major Comic Seller or Auctioneer like ComicLink, ComicConnect, Worldwide Comics, Doug Sulipa, Victory Comics, Greg Reece, Heritage, etc are not or at some future juncture will not be considered reputable by CGC.   If I was any of those entities I'd be rather unhappy with CGC

BTW the scammer was considered a reputable dealer by CGC until the scheme unraveled! Therefore purchasing from "reputable dealers" is NOT a solution and not safe and it never ever will be!

Edited February 15 by MAR1979

[flchris]

"Unfortunately, counterfeit – and, relatedly, tampered – products have become an issue that many companies and consumers now face. Bad actors seek illegitimate profits by creating knockoffs of well-known, trusted and valuable brands. CGC is one of these targets, and we will take aggressive action to combat counterfeiters and other fraudsters, including through lawsuits, security enhancements and awareness campaigns. We cannot, however, provide compensation to people who purchase counterfeit or tampered products. This would, in effect, render the counterfeit or tampered products as valuable as the real deal, despite CGC having absolutely no involvement in their production."

On a side note, doesn't CGC grade and slab counterfeit comics (e.g., counterfeit TMNT books)? While they do label it as such, doesn't it essentially "legitimize" that market?

[Panda2]

On 2/15/2024 at 10:13 AM, MAR1979 said:

CGC's (IMHO totally weak) message is purchase from "reputable" dealers.  Keep in mind lack of reputable dealers is one of the reasons CGC was formed in the first place. To have their slabs level playing field for buyers and expand the hobby via that trust

According to CGC's newest message any dealer who has sold or every might unknowingly sell a tainted or "counterfeited" or tampered slab is not reputable.   Which means every Major Comic Seller or Auctioneer like ComicLink, ComicConnect, Worldwide Comics, Doug Sulipa, Greg Reece, Heritage, etc are not or at some future juncture will not be considered reputable by CGC.   If I was any of those entities I'd be rather unhappy with CGC

BTW the scammer was considered a reputable dealer by CGC until the scheme unraveled! Therefore purchasing from "reputable dealers" is NOT a solution and not safe and it never ever will be!

Yeah, it just seems like they are trying to wash their hands of it - to be aware that there are counterfeit versions of their product floating around in the marketplace, and to not own that seems irresponsible at best.  Given the data they have on all the submissions, I would think flagging those cert numbers to the community at large would be the least they could do.

[MAR1979]

On 2/15/2024 at 10:21 AM, flchris said:

 

On a side note, doesn't CGC grade and slab counterfeit comics (e.g., counterfeit TMNT books)? While they do label it as such, doesn't it essentially "legitimize" that market?

Counterfeits are Ok with them as long as they bring in thems Benjamin's

[sledgehammer]

On 2/15/2024 at 9:04 AM, shadroch said:

So CGC is warning us about fake books in their slabs, but only feels responsible for the ones they personally helped create?

Yes, but I'm not really worried about the Hulk 181 that I bought recently.

The dealer at the con said that it was original owner, a little old lady from Pasadena.

[ADAMANTIUM]

Man was I tired last night.

I know that CGC's hands are tied and or limited, I still want to say that is at the moment at least. I'm sure solutions will come; I just don't know how else to build confidence.

I know they said implementation was in place, and the newer slabs more tightly sealed sounded promising.

I can only hope  

[Stefan_W]

On 2/15/2024 at 10:04 AM, shadroch said:

So CGC is warning us about fake books in their slabs, but only feels responsible for the ones they personally helped create?

Change "feels responsible" to "is liable." People have feelings, companies have legal responsibilities. Such messages are vetted by a legal team that is not going to widen the liability of their client. 

I read the bottom line of the message as "go after the person who sold you or produced the fraudulent slab" but I am not up on legalese and I could be wrong.  

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 2/15/2024 at 9:34 AM, Stefan_W said:

Change "feels responsible" to "is liable." People have feelings, companies have legal responsibilities. Such messages are vetted by a legal team that is not going to widen the liability of their client. 

I read the bottom line of the message as "go after the person who sold you or produced the fraudulent slab" but I am not up on legalese and I could be wrong.  

That is more to the point and what "I" was trying to get at, they need to pin the parties to the wall. If CGC themselves can have legal guarantee rights to go after the "reholders" part of the scam, then they should expect those others with the info of related cert numbers to do class action. Then maybe CGC could be a 3rd party to that lawsuit to back them up? As opposed to their now standalone "guaranteed litigation?"

Everyone was saying the "victims", besides cgc, should do their own litigation, this statement or legalease just makes for the perfect justification for doing so.  

Edited February 15 by ADAMANTIUM