ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[lostboys]

On 2/16/2024 at 2:52 PM, HighGrade said:

OK, But it is the same copy, it's not a problem, 100% both are the same Windy City Marvel #1, no shenanigans. It was pressed and cleaned at lest twice went from a 8.5 to 9.0 to 9.4, the last cleaning and pressing was amazing, they pressed a crease out on the back that really jumped the grade up. I posted that a while ago and then @MasterChief posted a beautiful timeline showing everything from start to finish a few pages ago.

This just continues to illustrates my point that CGC needs to put more notes on the holder and in the cert lookup, plus keep original images and reholder images. These changes are simple and make a huge difference, otherwise questions will continue to pop up and cause a lack of confidence in books being legit. These side by side images with new cert# and pedigree will haunt CGC because 99% of the people do not know, a simple note on the holder and all this never happens.

Unfortunately due to scammers now everyone needs to see a book they are selling or buying is legit... need to be able to go back and see each time CGC slabbed it, so the buyer/seller knows it's the book they are buying/selling, and any notes describing it, of course the bigger the book the more cost, more notes etc.. some of these notes should be right on the label too, like here showcasing the year the Windy City pedigree was recognized.

We'll get there, all this is good.

 

So, damn...it's almost as if this book has been restored to NM condition.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 2/16/2024 at 5:33 PM, lostboys said:

So, damn...it's almost as if this book has been restored to NM condition.

[comicjel]

On 2/16/2024 at 3:26 PM, Nick Furious said:

Curious if anyone knows what ever became of the Mark Jeweler book that started this whole thread?  

I believe it is now recognized as the Windy City copy 

Edited February 17 by comicjel

[comicjel]

On 2/16/2024 at 5:33 PM, lostboys said:

So, damn...it's almost as if this book has been restored to NM condition.

Sometimes when I buy a book that has pressable defects, or has some dirt on back cover that I know could be easily cleaned, I almost feel it is already in the grade it would be after said clean and press - those types of flaws kind of become invisible to me.  It's enough that they could be removed.   

Edited February 17 by comicjel

[MAR1979]

On 2/16/2024 at 4:14 PM, WNY said:

It’s now a 10.0

Have Ron Frenz staple on an Acetate voilà -- its a 10.0

Edited February 16 by MAR1979

[brute_nm]

On 2/16/2024 at 1:26 PM, Nick Furious said:

Curious if anyone knows what ever became of the Mark Jeweler book that started this whole thread?  

4277700004 Amazing Spider-Man #252 9.8 Mark Jewelers is still out there. It has not been sent back to CGC and is therefore still on the census.

I can't imagine the buyer doesn't know. Maybe they're waiting for the storm to blow over so they can resell. Or let it live in infamy as "the book that started it all" or something. Or maybe pursuing charges of their own and don't want to surrender the evidence to CGC. 

Edited February 17 by brute_nm

[comicjel]

On 2/16/2024 at 6:59 PM, brute_nm said:

4277700004 Amazing Spider-Man #252 9.8 Mark Jewelers is still out there. It has not been sent back to CGC and is therefore still on the census.

I can't imagine the buyer doesn't know. Maybe they're waiting for the storm to blow over so they can resell. Or let it live in infamy as "the book that started it all" or something. Or maybe pursuing charges of their own and don't want to surrender the evidence to CGC. 

Wouldn't it be ironic if the EBAY sale was a shill sale to pump up the price before actually trying to sell it later??

[grendel013]

On 2/16/2024 at 7:14 PM, comicjel said:

Wouldn't it be ironic if the EBAY sale was a shill sale to pump up the price before actually trying to sell it later??

[comeaux]

On 2/16/2024 at 2:29 AM, lou_fine said:

You DO realize what you are asking is for both CGC and sellers to FULLY DISCLOSE that a book they are trying to sell for maximum dollars has been worked on in order to artificially manipulate it from a lower graded copy into a higher graded copy.  

Sure, it's "legit" from CGC's point if view, but have you ever seen any auction listing with a description that says the book bring auctioned used to be a former lower graded copy.  There's a clear reason for why this is NEVER EVER disclosed and it's all to do with money.  

[Nick Furious]

On 2/16/2024 at 6:14 PM, comicjel said:

Wouldn't it be ironic if the EBAY sale was a shill sale to pump up the price before actually trying to sell it later??

I enjoy that thought.  

On the other hand, there's a side of me that has no concern whatsoever for anyone who actually bought that book for that price.

Edited February 17 by Nick Furious

[brute_nm]

In the absence of any info from CGC, I decided to put together my own summary of where we're at.

CGC has asked customers to send books back for verification.  So have all 350 been checked?  Let's see.  From my count, only 76 out of the 350 (22%) have been checked; 274 (78%) have NOT been checked.  Of those checked:

• 63 had their grades REMOVED, which I assume means they were deemed fraudulent
• 13 maintained their grade, which I assume means they were VERIFIED as legit

Here is a table of the books that had their grades REMOVED:

Here is a table of the books that were VERIFIED and maintained their grade:

A couple oddities... the following cert numbers have a strike-thru on the Hot 350, but they do not have a new grade date, nor have their grades been removed.

• 0233579004
• 0800641009
• 1152116001
• 4036499006

@CGC Mike, are these 4 books legit or not?  If not, why do they have a strike-thru and why is their grade still present?  Why don't they have new grade "verification" dates?

Now, let's go further.  Starting with the initial Hot 350 list, I used the cert numbers to "fill holes."  When there were multiple cert numbers from the same larger submission, I added all the rest of the books from that submission.  In my opinion, any book submitted by this account should be flagged as potentially fradulent, regardless of if it was sent for reholder or not.  Filling holes gets us 216 additional books + the original 350 = 566 total.

Here is a breakdown of these 216 additional books... 22 more ASM 194's, 16 more ASM 238's, 12 more ASM 252's, 36 more ASM 300's.

@CGC Mike, please increase the list to include ALL books submitted by Zanello/CBS account, even non-reholders.  At MINIMUM, the list should be 566 (as shown above), but more likely should be ~2000 (as stated in the legal filing).  @comicwiz has proof of fraudulent books that are NOT on the 350 list, and the legal filing states that Zanello sometimes skipped the reholder process all together.  We MUST verify every book this guy touched.

[HighGrade]

On 2/16/2024 at 6:38 PM, comicjel said:

Sometimes when I buy a book that has pressable defects, or has some dirt on back cover that I know could be easily cleaned, I almost feel it is already in the grade it would be after said clean and press - those types of flaws kind of become invisible to me.  It's kind of good enough that they could be removed.   

I agree, I have a LOT of books like that, I purposely look for books that are either under graded or have defects that can be cleaned/pressed away. They are fine the way they are to me, or maybe I'm just too lazy to do the work.

So yeah I love and hate what that Marvel Comics #1 went to, part of me says it's not original, looks artificial and pushed too far, but part of me says WOW! looks amazing....so I learned to accept it. Kinda like women, I still prefer natural, not all made up, original. But all made up pressed and cleaned into a shiny new outfit, and WOW looks amazing!  You just learn to accept it, pressing and cleaning is fine, but you can push too far and it loses that authentic look.

[grendel013]

On 2/16/2024 at 11:51 PM, brute_nm said:

In the absence of any info from CGC, I decided to put together my own summary of where we're at.

CGC has asked customers to send books back for verification.  So have all 350 been checked?  Let's see.  From my count, only 76 out of the 350 (22%) have been checked; 274 (78%) have NOT been checked.  Of those checked:

• 63 had their grades REMOVED, which I assume means they were deemed fraudulent
• 13 maintained their grade, which I assume means they were VERIFIED as legit

Here is a table of the books that had their grades REMOVED:

Here is a table of the books that were VERIFIED and maintained their grade:

A couple oddities... the following cert numbers have a strike-thru on the Hot 350, but they do not have a new grade date, nor have their grades been removed.

• 0233579004
• 0800641009
• 1152116001
• 4036499006

@CGC Mike, are these 4 books legit or not?  If not, why do they have a strike-thru and why is their grade still present?  Why don't they have new grade "verification" dates?

Now, let's go further.  Starting with the initial Hot 350 list, I used the cert numbers to "fill holes."  When there were multiple cert numbers from the same larger submission, I added all the rest of the books from that submission.  In my opinion, any book submitted by this account should be flagged as potentially fradulent, regardless of if it was sent for reholder or not.  Filling holes gets us 216 additional books + the original 350 = 566 total.

Here is a breakdown of these 216 additional books... 22 more ASM 194's, 16 more ASM 238's, 12 more ASM 252's, 36 more ASM 300's.

@CGC Mike, please increase the list to include ALL books submitted by Zanello/CBS account, even non-reholders.  At MINIMUM, the list should be 566 (as shown above), but more likely should be ~2000 (as stated in the legal filing).  @comicwiz has proof of fraudulent books that are NOT on the 350 list, and the legal filing states that Zanello sometimes skipped the reholder process all together.  We MUST verify every book this guy touched.

Thank you for putting this together.

[grendel013]

And if I find out that copy of Itchy and Scratch #1 should also be on the list and was swapped out, HEADS WILL ROLL!!!!!

[Sweet Lou 14]

On 2/16/2024 at 11:51 PM, brute_nm said:

In the absence of any info from CGC, I decided to put together my own summary of where we're at.

CGC has asked customers to send books back for verification.  So have all 350 been checked?  Let's see.  From my count, only 76 out of the 350 (22%) have been checked; 274 (78%) have NOT been checked.  Of those checked:

• 63 had their grades REMOVED, which I assume means they were deemed fraudulent
• 13 maintained their grade, which I assume means they were VERIFIED as legit

Here is a table of the books that had their grades REMOVED:

Here is a table of the books that were VERIFIED and maintained their grade:

A couple oddities... the following cert numbers have a strike-thru on the Hot 350, but they do not have a new grade date, nor have their grades been removed.

• 0233579004
• 0800641009
• 1152116001
• 4036499006

@CGC Mike, are these 4 books legit or not?  If not, why do they have a strike-thru and why is their grade still present?  Why don't they have new grade "verification" dates?

Now, let's go further.  Starting with the initial Hot 350 list, I used the cert numbers to "fill holes."  When there were multiple cert numbers from the same larger submission, I added all the rest of the books from that submission.  In my opinion, any book submitted by this account should be flagged as potentially fradulent, regardless of if it was sent for reholder or not.  Filling holes gets us 216 additional books + the original 350 = 566 total.

Here is a breakdown of these 216 additional books... 22 more ASM 194's, 16 more ASM 238's, 12 more ASM 252's, 36 more ASM 300's.

@CGC Mike, please increase the list to include ALL books submitted by Zanello/CBS account, even non-reholders.  At MINIMUM, the list should be 566 (as shown above), but more likely should be ~2000 (as stated in the legal filing).  @comicwiz has proof of fraudulent books that are NOT on the 350 list, and the legal filing states that Zanello sometimes skipped the reholder process all together.  We MUST verify every book this guy touched.

Really appreciate the effort you're putting in.  However, I can tell you that one of the books in your "REMOVED" list is mine.  I submitted it, it was found not to have been tampered with, and I received it back with a new holder and certification number.  So it would be incorrect to say that all "REMOVED" books were fraudulent.

[brute_nm]

On 2/17/2024 at 8:08 AM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

Really appreciate the effort you're putting in.  However, I can tell you that one of the books in your "REMOVED" list is mine.  I submitted it, it was found not to have been tampered with, and I received it back with a new holder and certification number.  So it would be incorrect to say that all "REMOVED" books were fraudulent.

Thanks for the info. In the absence of information, I had to make assumptions.

For the 76 that have been checked, they all have new grade dates in Jan/Feb of this year. Some have grades vacated and some still have grades. My assumption was if the grade was vacated, the book was confirmed fraudulent, which is why the old cert number and grade were invalidated.

So I guess my question is: if yours checked fine and still got a new cert number, what are the 13 books that were regraded in Jan/Feb but have the same grade and same cert number? I'm not saying you know the answer to this, but maybe CGC can shed some light.

The inconsistency and lack of transparency needs to be addressed.

[comeaux]

On 2/17/2024 at 9:18 AM, brute_nm said:

inconsistency and lack of transparency

Synonyms of CGC

[ramithard]

Let's say you have a Spider-man # 300 that was on the list at 9.8....you send it in....

CGC cracks it and and sees its a 9.2 0r 9.4.....CGC does their own clean and press and bumps it to a 9.6/9.8 ...doesn't matter...

They label it a 9.8....leave same same cert. number, re-seal, .... and mail back and say not affected....

[brute_nm]

On 2/17/2024 at 8:18 AM, brute_nm said:

Thanks for the info. In the absence of information, I had to make assumptions.

For the 76 that have been checked, they all have new grade dates in Jan/Feb of this year. Some have grades vacated and some still have grades. My assumption was if the grade was vacated, the book was confirmed fraudulent, which is why the old cert number and grade were invalidated.

So I guess my question is: if yours checked fine and still got a new cert number, what are the 13 books that were regraded in Jan/Feb but have the same grade and same cert number? I'm not saying you know the answer to this, but maybe CGC can shed some light.

The inconsistency and lack of transparency needs to be addressed.

Let me rephrase the question so @CGC Mike can more clearly ask the team: what is the difference between strike-thru, new grade date with blank grade, and new grade date with old grade

I thought strike-thru meant the book has been rechecked but this is not the case.  Here is a list of all the books that have new grade dates (in 2024).  The yellow highlighted books were regraded in 2024 but do NOT have a strike-thru on CGC's list.  There is no consistency with books that have strike-thru and REMOVED grades.  There is no consistency with books that have strike-thru and VERIFIED grades.

Further, what is the protocol for these books?  Are all legit books given new cert numbers?  Do some maintain their old cert number?  Are all fraudulent books left on census but with grades removed?  Are they re-graded to have correct grades and new cert numbers?  What does it mean to have a new grade date but old cert number?  What does it mean when the grade is vacated?  Why does this have to be so complicated   Can we get a simple list from CGC of all books that have been checked so far, which were deemed legit, and which were deemed fraudulent.

We need some consistency and transparency with how these books are being handled to start rebuilding confidence in ALL cert numbers.

 

Edited February 17 by brute_nm

[comicjel]

On 2/16/2024 at 11:51 PM, brute_nm said:

In the absence of any info from CGC, I decided to put together my own summary of where we're at.

CGC has asked customers to send books back for verification.  So have all 350 been checked?  Let's see.  From my count, only 76 out of the 350 (22%) have been checked; 274 (78%) have NOT been checked.  Of those checked:

• 63 had their grades REMOVED, which I assume means they were deemed fraudulent
• 13 maintained their grade, which I assume means they were VERIFIED as legit

Here is a table of the books that had their grades REMOVED:

Here is a table of the books that were VERIFIED and maintained their grade:

A couple oddities... the following cert numbers have a strike-thru on the Hot 350, but they do not have a new grade date, nor have their grades been removed.

• 0233579004
• 0800641009
• 1152116001
• 4036499006

@CGC Mike, are these 4 books legit or not?  If not, why do they have a strike-thru and why is their grade still present?  Why don't they have new grade "verification" dates?

Now, let's go further.  Starting with the initial Hot 350 list, I used the cert numbers to "fill holes."  When there were multiple cert numbers from the same larger submission, I added all the rest of the books from that submission.  In my opinion, any book submitted by this account should be flagged as potentially fradulent, regardless of if it was sent for reholder or not.  Filling holes gets us 216 additional books + the original 350 = 566 total.

Here is a breakdown of these 216 additional books... 22 more ASM 194's, 16 more ASM 238's, 12 more ASM 252's, 36 more ASM 300's.

@CGC Mike, please increase the list to include ALL books submitted by Zanello/CBS account, even non-reholders.  At MINIMUM, the list should be 566 (as shown above), but more likely should be ~2000 (as stated in the legal filing).  @comicwiz has proof of fraudulent books that are NOT on the 350 list, and the legal filing states that Zanello sometimes skipped the reholder process all together.  We MUST verify every book this guy touched.

Major props for pulling this together!! 👍

When I see three! JIM #83s... one in 8.0, one in 7.0, one in 6.5... knowing how this scammer operated... just makes me wonder what these guys accomplished that is not on our radar!!