Tampering? What the fake is going on here! 2 2

[IceHole]

Has anyone been following this?

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:04 PM, IceHole said:

Has anyone been following this?

I'm not sure if you're kidding, but maybe try the 159+ page thread

 All good

[THE_BEYONDER]

[BigLeagueCHEW]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:04 AM, IceHole said:

Has anyone been following this?

Announced by CGC Mike in comics general a few hours ago. It’s a sticky post.

[Stefan_W]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:04 PM, IceHole said:

Has anyone been following this?

 

 

 

 

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat

never heard of it

[bluehorseshoe]

To me, this could be the test case alot of people have been looking for through the years. 

If all you are trying to do is survive a summary judgment motion on the "CGC Guarantee" limitations (actual damages and arbitration among other things), then this might be the "known or should have known" angle that gets you to the discovery phase. 

You potentially have a class, which would get rid of the venue issue. 

Barristers, thoughts?

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/28/2023 at 2:13 PM, bluehorseshoe said:

To me, this could be the test case alot of people have been looking for through the years. 

If all you are trying to do is survive a summary judgment motion on the "CGC Guarantee" limitations (actual damages and arbitration among other things), then this might be the "known or should have known" angle that gets you to the discovery phase. 

You potentially have a class, which would get rid of the venue issue. 

Barristers, thoughts?

My thoughts? 🤔 That there should only be one thread about this... But to each their own

[zosocane]

[comicparadox]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1ZjmxwrtAe/?igsh=Mjg4d2JhcnNzbGU0

[agamoto]

I think it's a good place to specifically ask questions about the response itself, like, why hasn't the FBI been called considering the scope of the fraud? We are talking about a "single individual" who has misrepresented his books to buyers on multiple venues. We're talking potentially 6 figures+ in criminal gains, shipped across state lines. It is a job for FEDERAL investigators to handle. 

It's great and all that CGC is willing to compensate anyone who's a victim, but what I want to hear is, "The FBI has been contacted and THEIR investigation is underway."

Yes, indeed, CGC also needs to investigate itself for failure to catch these book swaps and for inventing ways to prevent it going forward, but investigating the actual crime here is a function of federal agents, not hand picked investigators and outside legal counsel.

CGC says they'll make sure the individual will be held accountable, great. What about ALL the individuals who may have been doing the same thing with different sets of books? The FBI has the resources to investigate the matter not just at CGC, but elsewhere as well. Private investigators and outside counsel can't get a court order to reveal sales data on eBay, or messages sent and received by the individual, their emails, etc. 

CGC, you are NOT the only victim here. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/28/2023 at 3:14 PM, agamoto said:

I think it's a good place to specifically ask questions about the response itself, like, why hasn't the FBI been called considering the scope of the fraud? We are talking about a "single individual" who has misrepresented his books to buyers on multiple venues. We're talking potentially 6 figures+ in criminal gains, shipped across state lines. It is a job for FEDERAL investigators to handle. 

It's great and all that CGC is willing to compensate anyone who's a victim, but what I want to hear is, "The FBI has been contacted and THEIR investigation is underway."

Yes, indeed, CGC also needs to investigate itself for failure to catch these book swaps and for inventing ways to prevent it going forward, but investigating the actual crime here is a function of federal agents, not hand picked investigators and outside legal counsel.

CGC says they'll make sure the individual will be held accountable, great. What about ALL the individuals who may have been doing the same thing with different sets of books? The FBI has the resources to investigate the matter not just at CGC, but elsewhere as well. Private investigators and outside counsel can't get a court order to reveal sales data on eBay, or messages sent and received by the individual, their emails, etc. 

CGC, you are NOT the only victim here. 

Not to prolong this thread, but didn't the CGC statement say, "to the fullest extant of the law!" Where are you getting that they should talk about legal proceedings and hurt their case in public.

From my experience everyone who ends up contacting law enforcement is then told to hush up about it

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/28/2023 at 3:19 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Not to prolong this thread, but didn't the CGC statement say, "to the fullest extant of the law!" Where are you getting that they should talk about legal proceedings and hurt their case in public.

From my experience everyone who ends up contacting law enforcement is then told to hush up about it

 

 

[grendelbo]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:15 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

My thoughts? 🤔 That there should only be one thread about this... But to each their own

Yeah, but the first thread should be renamed. 

[IceHole]

To anyone who has had to deal with the slow rolling ball that is the fbi...

My only experience with them is reporting a crime with ebay about a purchase that never got mailed to me. Ebay refused to pay me back, I complain...they sent my compain to the fbi, who followed up 18 months later. They took my statement. That was 10 years ago. Nothing happened.  Law!

[ADAMANTIUM]

Furthermore, I didn't read anything that said "hand picked investigators", just outside of CGC authority, if that is not specific enough for you I get that, but I wouldn't assume that it isn't FBI or etc.

It takes time to build a case, and you don't show all your cards at once giving opportunity and etc. 

On 12/28/2023 at 3:30 PM, IceHole said:

To anyone who has had to deal with the slow rolling ball that is the fbi...

My only experience with them is reporting a crime with ebay about a purchase that never got mailed to me. Ebay refused to pay me back, I complain...they sent my compain to the fbi, who followed up 18 months later. They took my statement. That was 10 years ago. Nothing happened.  Law!

amen. I'm at ease but doesn't mean we shouldn't further it until finished. Just didn't hit me as a bad statement  

[IceHole]

I dont think the hobby is so fragile that this will break it. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

I suppose "F.B.I. wouldn't be a 'private' investigator" so I see where you got that, it does state however those same are investigating them too, see "and our processes"  

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/28/2023 at 3:19 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

The FBI has the resources to investigate the matter not just at CGC, but elsewhere as well. Private investigators and outside counsel can't get a court order to reveal sales data on eBay, or messages sent and received by the individual, their emails, etc. 

I agree with this, but maybe for the, ahem, FBI to take the case, this build up has to come first? idk what CGC has as official evidence, but I agree that these entities at the focus have a lot of time to abandon their evidence. 

 I'll move on  

[stormflora]

Sadly, without physical inspection, no amount of anti-tampering technology built into the holders will allow a buyer to determine its legitimacy. That's the risk you run with buying slabs online. These kinds of criminal acts are an inevitability, and they were bound to happen.

Paintings get duplicated all the time on the black market, to degrees of accuracy that are sometimes even imperceptible. I wouldn't be surprised if some Action Comics #1 issues out there are professional forgeries done with artificial aging and specialized ink and equipment from the Golden Age era. I've read an article about how a counterfeit painter was flawless in his art, but he got screwed over after years of forgeries when his specialized ink supplier one day cheaped out due to low supply and provided him instead a particular pigment that was made of a material that couldn't have existed back then to fulfill his order.

At the end of the day, speculators will speculate, and high value items will always be prime targets for criminal activity. This is why I don't believe in paying thousands to tens of thousands of dollars for comics that used to cost mere dimes. They're just luxuries to make yourself feel good, unless you're explicitly in the business to flip them. But to each's own. For all we know, some of the high value comics you see out in circulation right now might even be fake. But nobody can tell. Or the ones that own them don't want to reveal the truth, as it may make $1M suddenly worth $1.

Funny story: A relative of mine once owned a Rolex that was worth around $5,000. He decided to get it appraised once, and the appraiser was shocked with what they found. Apparently, every bit of the Rolex was genuine, diamonds and all, but the verification code that accompanied it was fake. So it wasn't a genuine Rolex, even if all of the materials and gold and whatever were worth thousands. A professional counterfeit.

For a more recent story, someone was caught trying to refund a bunch of counterfeit iPhones, which was successfully done at Apple Stores in the USA over a very long period of time. Walked out with hundreds of thousands, as well as genuine swapped iPhones to resell overseas. I forgot exactly how he got caught, but I think it was due to some employee finding his behaviour fishy and then looking deeper into the devices themselves, which eventually led to a criminal investigation.

Edited December 28, 2023 by stormflora

[OJ Pimpson]