Can anyone provide the Clift notes on the CGC case tampering incident? 4 4

[batman_fan]

I must have missed this one.

[Dick Pontoon]

This should get you up to speed in no time:

 

[batman_fan]

On 12/30/2023 at 12:46 PM, Pontoon said:

This should get you up to speed in no time:

 

Thank you sir !

[Dick Pontoon]

On 12/30/2023 at 2:50 PM, batman_fan said:

Thank you sir !

I may have exaggerated a bit in regards to the amount of time.

[THE_BEYONDER]

The Certified Guaranty Company (CGC), the largest grading company for comic books, has released a statement in response to a scandal that broke last week on social media. After a number of content creators on Instagram and YouTube discovered apparent fraudulent sales of graded comics, CGC launched an internal investigation. They came back today with an announcement on Instagram, saying that they estimate "a few hundred" comics are affected, and they will be working with collectors to make sure anyone who was affected is made whole. They have yet to release a complete list of the books they say are affected.

A number of comics appear to have been reholdered and sold for inflated prices in recent months, including many on the same eBay store (Comic Selects, which has since been closed). CGC promised to deliver a full list of affected books soon, and pledged to work with those affected. Nevertheless, this is likely the biggest challenge to CGC's credibility that the company has ever faced. While they are investigating the reholdering scam perpetrated by this one high roller, fans have started to question how many other people are out there pulling the same stunt, on a scale small enough that it doesn't provoke suspicion.

Here's what CGC had to say in a statement today on their website: 

The controversy started earlier this month, when Instagram comics influencer The 9.9 Newsstand discovered an apparent discrepancy involving a high-grade copy of The Amazing Spider-Man #252. The issue sold for over $15,000, marked as a 9.8-graded Mark Jewelers newsstand variant of the issue. What 9.9 Newsstand noticed was that the book's certificate number was tied to a 9.8 -- but not a Mark Jewelers variant, just a regular newsstand. The rarity of the Mark Jewelers was a big part of what drove the price up so high.

After some digging, 9.9 Newsstand suggested that it was likely somebody had found a way to replace the 9.8 newsstand with a lower-graded Mark Jewelers newsstand, and then resubmit it to CGC in order to artificially create a 9.8 Mark Jewelers. At the end of the day, the seller could sell the book for a lot more money, and still have a 9.8 sitting at home that they could resubmit, and have re-graded under a new number.

Shortly thereafter, YouTuber Automatic Comics found a CGC-graded copy of The Incredible Hulk #181 that appeared to have been reholdered. Whereas the Spider-Man book just looked suspicious, Automatic Comics was able to actually track down the specific copies of Hulk that he believes were involved. This led to a flood of new findings by various comic book collectors, speculators, and YouTubers. The eBay account responsible for the Hulk sale was quickly shut down after being flooded with bad feedback and refund requests.

The scam that has been detected is especially notable in that it requires a lot of up-front capital: you have to have two high-graded copies of a sought-after book in order to make it work. Still, Manu from The 9.9 Newsstand says it's something that could snowball quickly if not caught.

"It depends on how quick you turn around each scam book," he told ComicBook.com. "Because you can invest five grand, turn it into 20, and be freed up to do it times four on the next go-round. The capital increase actually adds up quite quickly if you move fast."

The specific verbage of the response is interesting, as well; CGC promises to make people whole "for losses arising from any failures in our services." That could limit the number of recipients to those whose comics were sent in for reholdering, while leaving out any victims whose books didn't pass through CGC hands after any potential tampering took place.

[THE_BEYONDER]

 

[Silver Surfer]

 

[Silver Surfer]

 

[BigLeagueCHEW]

On 12/30/2023 at 12:41 PM, batman_fan said:

I must have missed this one.

Someone was swapping lower grade books into higher grade slabs, reholdering them, along with submitting the higher grade books for grading. Double profiting. 

someone caught on when they did the mark jeweler 9.8s, found out it is fraud by spotting the lower grade books in the 9.8 holders, then a video and post was made on the boards about it.

CGC found out and posted a statement afterwards.

something like that in a nut shell.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 3:18 PM, BigLeagueCHEW said:

Someone was swapping lower grade books into higher grade slabs, reholdering them, along with submitting the higher grade books for grading. Double profiting. 

someone caught on when they did the mark jeweler 9.8s, found out it is fraud by spotting the lower grade books in the 9.8 holders, then a video and post was made on the boards about it.

CGC found out and posted a statement afterwards.

something like that in a nut shell.

Also for some the hobby is over and nothing will be the same again. 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:18 PM, BigLeagueCHEW said:

Someone was swapping lower grade books into higher grade slabs, reholdering them, along with submitting the higher grade books for grading. Double profiting. 

someone caught on when they did the mark jeweler 9.8s, found out it is fraud by spotting the lower grade books in the 9.8 holders, then a video and post was made on the boards about it.

CGC found out and posted a statement afterwards.

something like that in a nut shell.

So far board detectives have discovered in addition to those it appears that several Hulk 181s of various defects missing MVS missing pages etc [Green Label ] books were swapped into [Blue Label ] higher grade slabs and also reholdered. Leaving those original blue label books to be resubmitted.

  So far it is undetermined the scope of how many books . 

 

[Gambold Vintage]

There is a lot of screaming and breast-beating going on about this all over YouTube and various forums.  Obviously this is an issue for super-high grade comics that are traded like commodities on the market.  The impact on collectors and dealers who invest in such cannot be denied.  It should be noted, however, that the vast majority of collectors who own slabbed comics will be unaffected...because they own slabs that are not super high grades of "commodity comics" like IH181. 

So before you go running to your CGC box and start scanning for tampering, ask yourself if anyone would bother swapping out your sub 9.4 grade GA or SA or BA issues. The short answer is no, they wouldn't. The payback simply isn't there. This is limited to the ability to scam, for example, a 9.8 grade off a 9.2 comic that already has a very high market value. To engage in this practice you've got to have a lot of $$ upfront, the ability to tamper with CGC holders successfully, and the willingness to risk getting nailed by CGC and likely the Feds for wire fraud (for which the penalties are very unpleasant).

I won't call it a mountain out of molehill, because I know some collectors and dealers are going to be hurt by this. I sincerely hope they will be able to get satisfaction from CGC. I will also point out that they comprise a very small percentage of CGC-slabbed comic owners. The rest of us should be sympathetic, but not worry about it. 

Happy Collecting, Gambold
 

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Gambold Vintage

[Tnexus]

I would say the biggest takeaway from all of it is the discovery of how easy it is to swap a comic in a slab. I see this really being a big issue on modern swaps of 9.6 to 9.8 comics in the future.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Tnexus

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 3:42 PM, Gambold Vintage said:

There is a lot of screaming and breast-beating going on about this all over YouTube and various forums.  Obviously this is an issue for super-high grade comics that are traded like commodities on the market.  The impact on collectors and dealers who invest in such cannot be denied.  It should be noted, however, that the vast majority of collectors who own slabbed comics will be unaffected...because they own slabs that are not super high grades of "commodity comics" like IH181. 

So before you go running to your CGC box and start scanning for tampering, ask yourself if anyone would bother swapping out your sub 9.4 grade GA or SA or BA issues. The short answer is no, they wouldn't. The payback simply isn't there. This is limited to the ability to scam, for example, a 9.8 grade off a 9.2 comic that already has a very high market value. To engage in this practice you've got to have a lot of $$ upfront, the ability to tamper with CGC holders successfully, and the willingness to risk getting nailed by CGC and likely the Feds for wire fraud (for which the penalties are very unpleasant).

I won't call it a mountain out of molehill, because I know some collectors and dealers are going to be hurt by this. I sincerely hope they will be able to get satisfaction from CGC. I will also point out that they comprise a very small percentage of CGC-slabbed comic owners. The rest of us should be sympathetic, but not worry about it. 

Happy Collecting, Gambold
 

 

How dare you post some something that actually is critical in thinking & reason and actually makes sense.

Around here you post hyperbolic memes that the hobby is over or you post nothing at all.

I said good day sir!

 

 

[Flanders82]

Cliff Notes:

CGC's slabs are poorly designed and have limited security features to prevent tampering. CGC needs to redesign their slabs. 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 3:53 PM, Tnexus said:

I would say the biggest takeaway from all of it is the discovery of how easy it is to swap a comic in a slab. I see this really being a big issue on modern swaps of 9.6 to 9.8 comics in the future.

Can you show me?  So far no one has but apparently its easy and impossible to tell.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/30/2023 at 1:46 PM, Pontoon said:

This should get you up to speed in no time:

 

 

 

 

 

[Mmehdy]

it is a shame that a few bad apples are gaming the system to make tons of money on the true comic collectors back. Solution is easy...make the holder more difficult to tamper with.....

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 3:53 PM, Tnexus said:

I would say the biggest takeaway from all of it is the discovery of how easy it is to swap a comic in a slab. I see this really being a big issue on modern swaps of 9.6 to 9.8 comics in the future.

 

On 12/30/2023 at 4:21 PM, Flanders82 said:

Cliff Notes:

CGC's slabs are poorly designed and have limited security features to prevent tampering. CGC needs to redesign their slabs. 

 

On 12/30/2023 at 4:45 PM, Mmehdy said:

it is a shame that a few bad apples are gaming the system to make tons of money on the true comic collectors back. Solution is easy...make the holder more difficult to tamper with.....

No no no.

They don't need a Brand New slab (slight enhancement sure), they more so just need a CGC employee to check and open the book at Reholdering/ME to actually make sure it is the same book.  You know make sure the book actually has a MVS or Mark Jewelers Insert in there.

You can fix this issue in 5 minutes with just a pair of working eyes and someone who can follow basic protocols.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/30/2023 at 7:04 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

 

 

No no no.

They don't need a Brand New slab (slight enhancement sure), they more so just need a CGC employee to check and open the book at Reholdering/ME to actually make sure it is the same book.  You know make sure the book actually has a MVS or Mark Jewelers Insert in there.

You can fix this issue in 5 minutes with just a pair of working eyes and someone who can follow basic protocols.

I think your right  

The problem with that thought is proving to the public "that particular safety feature" is now in place, when it is one that should have always been there.

I've heard rumor that for "belief" a lot of people need something they can hold or see with their own eyes, in this case trust will have to be earned back.

You're not wrong and maybe the monetary promise in the "guarantee" will smooth it over somewhat, but having also heard of youtubers, I just don't know if that will suffice.