Police Comics 1 CGC 8.5 at auction on Comiclink 1 1

[thedagger]

The book has an older label, but by current standards would this be restored or conserved with the glue? 

 

I also found another Police Comics 1 CGC 2.5 that sold on Heritage Auctions that had glue but also has the unrestored label. Is the glue from the factory or printing process maybe?

 

Thanks!

Edited February 24 by thedagger

[Superman2006]

That's not uncommon for golden age books with very minor glue or color touch, as discussed in the following thread (there are other similar threads as well; just google select key words (e.g. minor resto but blue label church comic books)

 

[Robot Man]

Other than a very few WWII books with pages tipped in to save paper, and squarebound books, glue was never used in the printing process. 

[Patriot6]

If the human bomb was looking at me that way, I'd give it a blue label too!

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/23/2024 at 2:24 PM, szav said:

The reasoning typically given is that it's such a miniscule amount of glue, applied to such a small tear, that removal of it wouldn't affect the grade.  If you look at the graders notes, it actually calls the spot "restoration" which is funny....but I imagine it was maybe just a tiny dab applied to a teensy bindery tear or something, by someone who didn't want to see it get worse.  Conservation in a way.

 

It isn't because it's a "miniscule" amount—unless you've drunk the Kool-Aid. It's because many of the Church books have glue and color touch on the spine, and CGC didn't want to give all of those Church books purple labels. Many of those books were sitting in the collections of people with undue influence in the hobby—people whose support CGC needed in order to succeed in the early days. Not surprisingly, CGC concocted a justification for giving Universal grades to books with a—ahem—"very minor amount" of glue or color touch. 

There are plenty of books out there that should be in PLODs, but aren't, @thedagger.

Edited February 23 by jimbo_7071

[lou_fine]

On 2/23/2024 at 12:26 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

It isn't because it's a "miniscule" amount—unless you've drunk the Kool-Aid. It's because many of the Church books have glue and color touch on the spine, and CGC didn't want to give all of those Church books purple labels.

I still remember the classic example when CGC first started up in 2000, being the Church copies of Adventure 40 with the first conceived appearance of the Sandman and More Fun 52 with the first appearance of the Spectre.  

Can't remember where they were sold, but the Church copy of More Fun 52 was encased in a blue Universal slab and denoted as having a very minor amount of color touch and glue and ended up selling for either a huge premium or a small multiple to condition guide value.  The Church copy of Adventure 40 was not quite so lucky as it was denoted as having a very small amount of color touch and glue and ended up selling at only a huge discount to condition guide on that first go round, before it ended up selling for much more in 2004 at Heritage:  

So, based upon these two examples, it would tend to confirm that the AMOUNT of color touch and/or glue does play some sort of a role in whether the book sits in a blue Universal slab like the Police Comics 1 above or whether it sits encased in a purple PLOD holder like this Church copy of Adventure Comics 40.  

 

On 2/23/2024 at 12:26 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

Many of those books were sitting in the collections of people with undue influence in the hobby—people whose support CGC needed in order to succeed in the early days.

As for the Church copy of More Fun 52, it's well known that Borock used to own it, but apparently sold it long before he got involved with CGC:  

In 1995 he set a record price when he purchased the Church copy of More Fun Comics #52 (the first appearance of The Spectre) for a then-unheard-of $115,000.

[lou_fine]

On 2/23/2024 at 12:26 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

There are plenty of books out there that should be in PLODs, but aren't, @thedagger.

Would you also be referring to the overwhelming majority of books being graded today, and in particular, to any of the books that have through the CPR process or have gone through CCS because pressing and cleaning used to fall under the restoration umbrella before CGC came into existence with their undisclosed grading standards and didn't bother to tell us that it wasn't until they got outed on these boards here years later.  

Edited February 24 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

On 2/23/2024 at 12:50 PM, szav said:

Also didn't the story go that there was one early collector of the Church books who really was incredibly anal/OCD, and who did apply pinprick size CT to many books?  No idea as to the truth of that.

I think a lot of this was done during the earlier time period when restoration was seen as ADDING VALUE to an unrestored book, similar to how undisclosed pressing and cleaning is seen as adding value to an unrestored book in today's marketplace.    

Edited February 24 by lou_fine

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/24/2024 at 2:05 AM, lou_fine said:

Would you also be referring to the overwhelming majority of books being graded today, and in particular, to any of the books that have through the CPR process or have gone through CCS because pressing and cleaning used to fall under the restoration umbrella before CGC came into existence with their undisclosed grading standards and didn't bother to tell us that it wasn't until they got outed on these boards here years later.  

I wasn't even including those. There are plenty of blue-label books out there with glue and color touch on the spine.

I guess the latest gimmick is lightening covers with blue light. I don't know whether that can be detected, but if it can be, then it seems pretty clear that it should be considered restoration.

[Robot Man]

No matter how little glue or color touch, it is something that wasn’t done in the printing process. Calling it “conservation” is just burying your head in the sand. It is a way to rationalize as to why it was really done in the first place. The fact that we now have let our principles slide is kind of sad.

Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with it generally if fully disclosed. As a kid, I taped and restapled my books just to keep them together. I have a lot of books with glue, color touch and minor trimming in my collection (and even worse). But for the most part, I bought them that way and knew it when I did. I consider them restored and just appreciate them the way they are. If I were to sell them, I have them carefully noted on their backing boards and would sell them at a price with this in mind. They should never be in a blue slab no matter how minor. 

[FoggyNelson]

On 2/24/2024 at 10:50 AM, Robot Man said:

No matter how little glue or color touch, it is something that wasn’t done in the printing process. Calling it “conservation” is just burying your head in the sand. It is a way to rationalize as to why it was really done in the first place. The fact that we now have let our principles slide is kind of sad.

Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with it generally if fully disclosed. As a kid, I taped and restapled my books just to keep them together. I have a lot of books with glue, color touch and minor trimming in my collection (and even worse). But for the most part, I bought them that way and knew it when I did. I consider them restored and just appreciate them the way they are. If I were to sell them, I have them carefully noted on their backing boards and would sell them at a price with this in mind. They should never be in a blue slab no matter how minor. 

The book looks too good to be true TGTBT

[lou_fine]

On 2/24/2024 at 7:57 AM, FoggyNelson said:

The book looks too good to be true TGTBT

Most definitely and personally what I feel to be a key GA book that had for years been pretty much under appreciated and undervalued with the origin and first appearance of the long running Plastic Man character along with the Phantom Lady character who would become much more famous and a desireable character under the artistic hands of Matt Baker.  

Definitely no longer the case during the past few years as clearly evident by the above noted CGC 2.5 Heritage auction result at a rather stunning $11,400 or at a multiple of 7.6X condition guide value back in 2021.    

Label notes aside, will definitely be interesting to see what this 3rd highest graded copy (i.e topped only by the Church CGC 9.4 and Windy City CGC 9.2 graded copies) will be able to fetch in today's post-pandemic marketplace where a lot of books have cooled right back down to pre-pandemic levels or lower, while others have continue to rocket upwards:     

https://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAUCTIONS%2FSEARCH.ASP%3FFocusedOnly%3D1%26where%3Dauctions%26title%3Dpolice%2Bcomics%2B1%26ItemType%3DCB%26CGC%3DYES%26CBCS%3DYES%23Item_1751205&id=1751205&itemType=0

[lou_fine]

On 2/24/2024 at 7:50 AM, Robot Man said:

They should never be in a blue slab no matter how minor. 

I still remember when the whole pressing controversy was the hot topic of the day for the longest while back then and Borock said for those who wanted to differentiate between pressed books from unpressed books, just assume that every single book sitting in a blue slab has already been restored pressed.  

[fishbone]

Many of those books were sitting in the collections of people with undue influence in the hobby—people whose support CGC needed in order to succeed in the early days

 

this ....... back then and even now I believe  (Promise grading anyone ?)

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/24/2024 at 2:01 PM, lou_fine said:

I still remember when the whole pressing controversy was the hot topic of the day for the longest while back then and Borock said for those who wanted to differentiate between pressed books from unpressed books, just assume that every single book sitting in a blue slab has already been restored pressed.  

Yep. That sounds like the judgment of someone who thinks a ponytail mullet looks good.

[thedagger]

If the 2.5 here sold for 7 times guide value, then is this a 50k+ book? 

(Also curious as to what a fair price is for the All Select 9 promise collection copy)

[lou_fine]

On 2/24/2024 at 11:11 AM, fishbone said:

Many of those books were sitting in the collections of people with undue influence in the hobby—people whose support CGC needed in order to succeed in the early days

 

this ....... back then and even now I believe  (Promise grading anyone ?)

Well, there's actually a perfectly fine explanation for this as word on the street is that the Zanello's personally "handled" all of the Promise Collection books while employed at CGC and simply used them as the practice run for their planned big money making scheme scam.  

Edited February 24 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

On 2/24/2024 at 11:58 AM, thedagger said:

If the 2.5 here sold for 7 times guide value, then is this a 50k+ book? 

Well, even though it's normal for multiples to drop as a book hits the less affordable higher grade condition levels, it still would not surprise me at all it surpasses $50K as that represents less than a mere 3X its condition guide valuation of only $17,150.    

Especially since it's been almost two whole decades since a HG copy last hit the marketplace, with the most recent Universal copy in any grade being a CGC 4.0 graded copy that sold for some $18K back in October of 2022 or at a price multiple of some 7.5X conndition guide value.    

 

On 2/24/2024 at 11:58 AM, thedagger said:

(Also curious as to what a fair price is for the All Select 9 promise collection copy)

Well, if the same trend holds true to form for the overwhelming majority of the recent Promise Collection resales, then I would expect this Promise copy of All-Select  9 to take a huge huge fall from the rather insane $43.2K price point it was able to achieve in its first go round back in the summer of 2021.    

Edited February 24 by lou_fine

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/24/2024 at 2:58 PM, thedagger said:

If the 2.5 here sold for 7 times guide value, then is this a 50k+ book? 

(Also curious as to what a fair price is for the All Select 9 promise collection copy)

My guess is $20—$25K on both books, but it's exactly that—a guess. It all depends on who's bidding on a particular day.

D.C. let the character of Plastic Man slip into the public domain, which would have killed profits from tie-in toys, etc., so there was never a major motion picture and never will be one. A streaming-service-era version of a made-for-T.V. movie was released on H.B.O. Max (yawn). I like the character, but comic book speculators don't seem to. Still, if Plastic Man had been featured as the main character on the cover, then it would probably be a $50K book in 8.5.

Edited February 25 by jimbo_7071

[lou_fine]

On 2/24/2024 at 6:33 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

On 2/24/2024 at 11:58 AM, thedagger said:

If the 2.5 here sold for 7 times guide value, then is this a 50k+ book? 

My guess is $20—$25K on both books, but it's exactly that—a guess. It all depends on who's bidding on a particular day.

Willing to place a friendly wager with you that it goes for more than your high guess of $25K, especially since it is the 3rd highest graded copy ar CGC 8.5 and behind only the Church and the Windy City pedigree copies.  Especially since this CGC 4.0 graded copy was able to fetch $18K with another whopping 26 copies in higher graded condition at the time of sale in late 2022:  

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/police-comics-1-quality-1941-cgc-vg-40-white-pages/a/7335-88095.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515