Giant Size X-Men #1 Just Graded 9.9. It Begins..... 6 6

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 6/4/2024 at 7:56 PM, LordRahl said:

I've said it multiple times on this board over the years that CGC artificially holds back 9.9s and 10s. The only responses I got were "take your tinfoil hat off" nonsense. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 6/4/2024 at 7:56 PM, LordRahl said:

they have always held back those grades.

[mrwoogieman]

It's not that the grading wasn't "right" then and is going to be "right" from now on, it's that CGC's past actions established the marketplace for high grade CGC graded books and now they are doing something different that will affect that established market.

 

[october]

How they choose to format their grading standards is not nearly as important as the consistent application of those standards. This change fails that test. 

[Vince G]

On 6/5/2024 at 10:07 AM, october said:

How they choose to format their grading standards is not nearly as important as the consistent application of those standards. This change fails that test. 

Exactly.  They've changed their standards and have failed to inform the community of those changes.  Now some may say, "They published the grading guide," but it's pretty clear at this point that currently, they aren't even following the standards put forth in that guide.  Seen it with a number of books in the PGM thread as well as my recent submissions.  Just my opinion here but once you define and publish a standard, it shouldn't change (or become a sliding scale).

[wiparker824]

Excerpt from an article CGC published only a year ago: https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/10325/spotting-a-98-book/

How does a book earn a grade of CGC 9.8? And what do you need to know before submitting your books for grading?

As you’re flipping through your long box of comics looking for books to send out for grading, you are understandably looking for books in the best condition. While grades of CGC 9.9 (Mint) and CGC 10 (Gem Mint) are possible, they are rare. A CGC 9.8 (Near Mint/Mint) is a nearly perfect collectible with negligible handling or manufacturing defects, and it’s about the best grade you can typically expect to get on a book.

Just need to republish this article appending the famous “Until now!” to the end of that last sentence. Then announce the low introductory price of the 9.9 prescreen.

In the end this doesn’t impact me a ton since I have more 1.8’s than 9.8’s but I do feel for the 9.8 collectors out there. 

[Tec-Tac-Toe]

My 9.8s are dead, my 9.6s and lower are buried.

[LordRahl]

On 6/5/2024 at 8:11 AM, wiparker824 said:

Excerpt from an article CGC published only a year ago: https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/10325/spotting-a-98-book/

How does a book earn a grade of CGC 9.8? And what do you need to know before submitting your books for grading?

As you’re flipping through your long box of comics looking for books to send out for grading, you are understandably looking for books in the best condition. While grades of CGC 9.9 (Mint) and CGC 10 (Gem Mint) are possible, they are rare. A CGC 9.8 (Near Mint/Mint) is a nearly perfect collectible with negligible handling or manufacturing defects, and it’s about the best grade you can typically expect to get on a book.

Just need to republish this article appending the famous “Until now!” to the end of that last sentence. Then announce the low introductory price of the 9.9 prescreen.

In the end this doesn’t impact me a ton since I have more 1.8’s than 9.8’s but I do feel for the 9.8 collectors out there. 

Nothing has changed from that statement. 9.8 is STILL the best grade you can TYPICALLY expect. Given that the percentage of 9.9/10 is still going to be in the low single digits, 9.9/10 is still going to be "rare".

[LordRahl]

On 6/5/2024 at 7:16 AM, Vince G said:

Exactly.  They've changed their standards and have failed to inform the community of those changes.  Now some may say, "They published the grading guide," but it's pretty clear at this point that currently, they aren't even following the standards put forth in that guide.  Seen it with a number of books in the PGM thread as well as my recent submissions.  Just my opinion here but once you define and publish a standard, it shouldn't change (or become a sliding scale).

I don't think they've changed their grading standards. I think they have taken the artificial suppression of 9.9/10s away. That's a change in policy, but not their grading standards. I submit a LOT of high grade copper. They are as hard on it now as they have been the last few years. Also, it's always been a sliding scale. You are fooling yourself if you think different. GA has always been graded more leniently then SA, and SA more leniently than Copper. ALWAYS.

[Nick Furious]

On 6/5/2024 at 10:11 AM, wiparker824 said:

I do feel for the 9.8 collectors out there. 

I prefer comic book collectors.  

[Vince G]

On 6/5/2024 at 3:24 PM, LordRahl said:

I don't think they've changed their grading standards. I think they have taken the artificial suppression of 9.9/10s away. That's a change in policy, but not their grading standards. I submit a LOT of high grade copper. They are as hard on it now as they have been the last few years. Also, it's always been a sliding scale. You are fooling yourself if you think different. GA has always been graded more leniently then SA, and SA more leniently than Copper. ALWAYS.

Just take a peek at the PGM threads and you'll see some interesting results.  Particularly this one:  

 

[LordRahl]

On 6/5/2024 at 12:46 PM, Vince G said:

Just take a peek at the PGM threads and you'll see some interesting results.  Particularly this one:  

 

Nothing interesting about it. Gift grades have been happening for the entire 20+ year existence of CGC. It is not anything new in any way, shape or form. Also, Hulk 181 is not copper, copper in particular is what I called out as a category that CGC is harsh on currently.

[wiparker824]

On 6/5/2024 at 12:17 PM, LordRahl said:

Nothing has changed from that statement. 9.8 is STILL the best grade you can TYPICALLY expect. Given that the percentage of 9.9/10 is still going to be in the low single digits, 9.9/10 is still going to be "rare".

Like I said, until they roll out the 9.9 prescreen. Which, nobody is sending books they don’t expect to TYPICALLY get a 9.9 to a 9.9 prescreen so either the 9.9’s will become typical or CGC is going to launch some unicorn lottery game to get a 9.9 via prescreen. And with the increase in the numbers posted in this thread already I think we have our answer - 9.9’s are already becoming more typical than they were a year ago when they made that article.

[LordRahl]

On 6/5/2024 at 1:06 PM, wiparker824 said:

Like I said, until they roll out the 9.9 prescreen. Which, nobody is sending books they don’t expect to TYPICALLY get a 9.9 to a 9.9 prescreen so either the 9.9’s will become typical or CGC is going to launch some unicorn lottery game to get a 9.9 via prescreen. And with the increase in the numbers posted in this thread already I think we have our answer - 9.9’s are already becoming more typical than they were a year ago when they made that article.

typically

Dictionary

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

 

 

adverb

1. in most cases; usually.

   "the quality of work is typically very high"

    

   If you think 9.9/10s will be awarded "in most cases or usually"... let's just say you're expectations are unrealistic

[wiparker824]

On 6/5/2024 at 1:11 PM, LordRahl said:

typically

Dictionary

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

 

 

adverb

1. in most cases; usually.

   "the quality of work is typically very high"

    

   If you think 9.9/10s will be awarded "in most cases or usually"... let's just say you're expectations are unrealistic

If you want to debate semantics that’s on you. But my guess is that at some point in the future they will become as typical as 9.8’s are today especially if they roll out the 9.9 pre screen. There’s really no reason why they shouldn’t already have been, particularly in the case of moderns, except that CGC was artificially capping the market at 9.8. Which whether you liked that or not it was at the very least consistent year over year. 

[LordRahl]

On 6/5/2024 at 1:20 PM, wiparker824 said:

If you want to debate semantics that’s on you. But my guess is that at some point in the future they will become as typical as 9.8’s are today especially if they roll out the 9.9 pre screen. There’s really no reason why they shouldn’t already have been, particularly in the case of moderns, except that CGC was artificially capping the market at 9.8. Which whether you liked that or not it was at the very least consistent year over year. 

You say that as if semantics aren't important. They are, especially in the context of what we're discussing here, which is what is in that statement by CGC and how more 9.9/10s changes it. I'm saying that statement as written has not changed even if CGC will now give out 9.9/10s more often. Of every 10 uber high grade books graded, not just moderns but all eras since moderns aren't the only books being graded, I'm betting that on average no more than 2 will grade out 9.9/10 and the other 8 will still be 9.8. That is in line with the statement that "9.8 is typically the best grade you can get". I actually think the percentage will be much lower but I do concede that it could be 20% on moderns. On bronze and below, where I believe that even with this change, it will be less than 1% that get above a 9.8, 9.8 will most definitely be the highest grade you can typically expect.

[Vince G]

On 6/5/2024 at 4:05 PM, LordRahl said:

Nothing interesting about it. Gift grades have been happening for the entire 20+ year existence of CGC. It is not anything new in any way, shape or form. Also, Hulk 181 is not copper, copper in particular is what I called out as a category that CGC is harsh on currently.

Noted.  However, this isn’t the only gift grade in bronze we’ve seen recently.

[LordRahl]

On 6/5/2024 at 1:37 PM, Vince G said:

Noted.  However, this isn’t the only gift grade in bronze we’ve seen recently.

Oh I know. I posted a Superman 233 in the overgraded thread that is in a 9.6 holder but doesn't look any better than an 8.5. I haven't been submitting enough bronzer and silver lately to have an informed opinion on how they are grading those ages of books, copper however is getting hammered pretty regularly. Maybe they are in a "soft" grading period. Over the years people here have opined that they do that. Based on my experience, I don't think it's that but rather inconsistency between their graders. No way of verifying either way but gift grades have always been a thing.

[wiparker824]

On 6/5/2024 at 1:35 PM, LordRahl said:

You say that as if semantics aren't important. They are, especially in the context of what we're discussing here, which is what is in that statement by CGC and how more 9.9/10s changes it. I'm saying that statement as written has not changed even if CGC will now give out 9.9/10s more often. Of every 10 uber high grade books graded, not just moderns but all eras since moderns aren't the only books being graded, I'm betting that on average no more than 2 will grade out 9.9/10 and the other 8 will still be 9.8. That is in line with the statement that "9.8 is typically the best grade you can get". I actually think the percentage will be much lower but I do concede that it could be 20% on moderns. On bronze and below, where I believe that even with this change, it will be less than 1% that get above a 9.8, 9.8 will most definitely be the highest grade you can typically expect.

Semantics aren’t really important, not to the point I was getting at. It’s pretty clear the implication of that article was that 9.8 was the highest grade one should ever expect, and detailed how to look for 9.8 copies in your collection because pretty much since CGC’s inception it’s been well known by collectors that a 9.8 was the top and that 9.9 and 10.0 were magical unicorns most of us would never see on a non-cardstock submission. That article doesn’t get written that way in an era where 20% of moderns (by your estimate) are hitting 9.9. And definitely doesn’t get written that way in an era where there is a 9.9 prescreen. If you believe it still does, because of “semantics” making it still technically a true statement I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.

[Tony S]

On 6/4/2024 at 9:56 PM, LordRahl said:

I've said it multiple times on this board over the years that CGC artificially holds back 9.9s and 10s. The only responses I got were "take your tinfoil hat off" nonsense. Now everyone is up in arms about it

You and others that are very concerned with these 9.9/10 grades all of a sudden coming out (which they should have been all along) are blaming the wrong people. You seem to think CGC is creating this market. They are not. Collectors are. You have a problem with it? Blame all of us that create the market. We are the problem. CGC is doing what any other rational for profit business would do, they see a market and they cater to it in order to make money. 

I'm sure this wasn't some evil genius plan that was a 25 year plan by Borock when he helped found CGC all those years ago. It's something that probably evolved over time. But it most definitely started back then as they have always held back those grades.

 

On 6/4/2024 at 10:24 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

Back when Matt Nelson ran his own comic pressing and restoration business - Classics Incorporated - he had an article on the website that demonstrated mathematically how there should have been more 9.9's and 10's in the CGC census. The article was quite convincing. The moment CGC purchased the business and renamed it CCS, that article went poof - even though the Classics Inc website stayed active for a time. 

I think Matt was right then.  Maybe Matt still feels the same way - and as President can now do something about it.  This basically started with the infamous interview about "how is there is not a single 9.9 or 10 on a book like Ultimate Fallout ". Matt's answer was along the lines of maybe they were to focused on 9.8 and were not looking.  So lets go over those numbers. Between the 1st and 2nd printings and the variant covers of each, CGC has certified over 8,500 copies of UF 4 at 9.8 (published 2011)  and not one single book at a MINT grade of 9.9 or 10. That seems pretty darn unlikely. 

So yeah - I too have said here on this forum before that there ought to be more 9.9 and 10's. Especially of real "modern" books - say published the last 25 years. Better printing, better paper. 

On 6/5/2024 at 9:07 AM, october said:

How they choose to format their grading standards is not nearly as important as the consistent application of those standards. This change fails that test. 

100% agree on consistency being the most important quality of grading. But if something has been done consistently wrong, it needs to be fixed. Books should get the grades they deserve. Or as Steve Borock has always said, give the book the highest grade that is not wrong.  CGC has arguably not been doing that. Despite the existence of the grades of  9.9 and 10, those two  grades were more like winning lottery tickets. 

The change may be disruptive and it may generate more submissions to CGC  But that doesn't mean it should not happen. Or I suppose we could do away with 9.9 and 10 and say the ones that exist were mistakes never to be made again.  

Edited June 6 by Tony S