Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 25 25

[DanJD]

On 7/27/2024 at 12:13 PM, MadGenius said:

Thanks. In your opinion, do the grades on the label match the books? My fear is CGC will continue to deny this is even a problem and do a standard reholder on any books that are returned to them (so as not to pay out anything for damages). That would be a mistake in my opinion, because if there is a proliferation of damaged books in holders in the market it will cause serious damage to CGC's brand.

Bingo.  I would say no it doesn’t match.  There are at least 6 color breaking spine ticks from the damage.  I would not think that is a 9.6, but the subjectivity of grading is going to be their loophole.

[MadGenius]

On 7/27/2024 at 1:22 PM, DanJD said:

Bingo.  I would say no it doesn’t match.  There are at least 6 color breaking spine ticks from the damage.  I would not think that is a 9.6, but the subjectivity of grading is going to be their loophole.

@CGC Mike I know you've washed your hands of this issue, but this isn't good. Since this thread started, there seems to be a concerted effort on the part of CGC to deny this is even a thing. Those of us who complain the loudest are given a pat on the head in the form of a free reholder, but it doesn't seem like the root issue has been remedied as those reholders are coming back with the extact same issue. CGC may think its protecting its brand by downplaying this, but this situation is 10x worse than reholder-gate. We're talking about a fundamental flaw in the encapsulation process that is actively damaging books (and making CGC graders look foolish in the process) versus the actions of a few bad actors in the hobby. I, personally, will not be purchasing any CGC graded comics graded in the last year or so, and will not be submitting any books for grading until a real solution to the problem has been found. I would encourage others to do the same. Maybe if the collective community starts speaking with their wallets, CGC will listen and finally fix the problem.

[MadGenius]

@DanJD Are your recently reholdered books sealed tightly on all four sides? I'm assuming so...

Until proven otherwise, I will point to that change in the encapsulation process as the cause of the curved inner well.

[DanJD]

On 7/27/2024 at 1:31 PM, MadGenius said:

@DanJD Are your recently reholdered books sealed tightly on all four sides? I'm assuming so...

Until proven otherwise, I will point to that change in the encapsulation process as the cause of the curved inner well.

I will have to check when I have a chance.  I never compared the old case to the new.  Just saw the obvious warped well.

[MAY1979]

I do miss the older pre 2016 slabs, they weren't perfect but they seldom damaged the contents inside. They also did not have the inside notches/cutouts on the top and bottom which has damaged a bunch of comics - shaken comics syndrome in effect. 3 or my last 4 purchases from multiple vendors in fact had the back of the books books mangled by the notches.  Just sent the last one back to MCS with them absorbing the cost. All the books were graded and slabbed after Feb 2023. I do hope folks like MCS and others have or will exert pressure as its costing them money.

 

 

Edited July 27 by MAR1979

[DanJD]

On 7/27/2024 at 1:31 PM, MadGenius said:

@DanJD Are your recently reholdered books sealed tightly on all four sides? I'm assuming so...

Until proven otherwise, I will point to that change in the encapsulation process as the cause of the curved inner well.

I honestly can’t tell how it’s sealed.  Seems like all 4 sides but not sure.  Sorry.  

[Sauce Dog]

It seems CGC did a number on my recently graded X-Men #1 while encapsulating it but are saying any damage isn't their fault. I don't have the book in hand yet but Jerry (who did the conservation leaf casting) has been speaking with them about the damage from what he believes is due to a far too tight/warped inner well which has caused the following: one edge to fold over (this is a minor complaint as it is expected with some leaf casted covers, but still going to mention it as a slightly larger inner well would accommodate any such books with slight overhang without incurring damage), a front cover that looks like it is all wavy/warped in the slab, and most importantly a full book wide crease appearing on the back cover.  

This book was sent in SUPER FLAT to them, especially the back cover. Jerry ain't happy about it, and I'm sure I will like it less once I get to see the issues up close (saw some pics so far though), and it is a shame these things are happening.

Edited July 27 by Sauce Dog

[LordRahl]

On 7/27/2024 at 10:43 AM, MadGenius said:

@CGC Mike I know you've washed your hands of this issue, but this isn't good. Since this thread started, there seems to be a concerted effort on the part of CGC to deny this is even a thing. Those of us who complain the loudest are given a pat on the head in the form of a free reholder, but it doesn't seem like the root issue has been remedied as those reholders are coming back with the extact same issue. CGC may think its protecting its brand by downplaying this, but this situation is 10x worse than reholder-gate. We're talking about a fundamental flaw in the encapsulation process that is actively damaging books (and making CGC graders look foolish in the process) versus the actions of a few bad actors in the hobby. I, personally, will not be purchasing any CGC graded comics graded in the last year or so, and will not be submitting any books for grading until a real solution to the problem has been found. I would encourage others to do the same. Maybe if the collective community starts speaking with their wallets, CGC will listen and finally fix the problem.

This right here. I was very vocal that reholder-gate would go away in no time and it took even less time than I thought for it to go away. It had no impact on CGC or the slabbed market despite the exaggerated fears of some boardies but this? This is enough to sink the ship. CGC better wake up and get their heads out of (use your imagination) and fix this. All they are doing is letting PSA have a real good crack at taking away their market position by just being obstinate. Mark Wilson being a crook in the past will not matter if PSA has a superior product that... and this is very important so pay attention CGC... doesn't damage the very thing it's designed to protect.

[MadGenius]

On 7/27/2024 at 11:35 PM, LordRahl said:

This right here. I was very vocal that reholder-gate would go away in no time and it took even less time than I thought for it to go away. It had no impact on CGC or the slabbed market despite the exaggerated fears of some boardies but this? This is enough to sink the ship. CGC better wake up and get their heads out of (use your imagination) and fix this. All they are doing is letting PSA have a real good crack at taking away their market position by just being obstinate. Mark Wilson being a crook in the past will not matter if PSA has a superior product that... and this is very important so pay attention CGC... doesn't damage the very thing it's designed to protect.

I've said it many times before and I will say it again -- the curved inner well is the direct result of "security measures" put in place in the wake of reholder-gate. CGC stamped out a small fire and created a wildfire in the process. The new encapsulation process makes the slabs too tight and this puts undue pressure on the inner well making it bow.

[DaveSFU]

On 7/27/2024 at 1:43 PM, MadGenius said:

@CGC Mike I know you've washed your hands of this issue, but this isn't good. Since this thread started, there seems to be a concerted effort on the part of CGC to deny this is even a thing. Those of us who complain the loudest are given a pat on the head in the form of a free reholder, but it doesn't seem like the root issue has been remedied as those reholders are coming back with the extact same issue. CGC may think its protecting its brand by downplaying this, but this situation is 10x worse than reholder-gate. We're talking about a fundamental flaw in the encapsulation process that is actively damaging books (and making CGC graders look foolish in the process) versus the actions of a few bad actors in the hobby. I, personally, will not be purchasing any CGC graded comics graded in the last year or so, and will not be submitting any books for grading until a real solution to the problem has been found. I would encourage others to do the same. Maybe if the collective community starts speaking with their wallets, CGC will listen and finally fix the problem.

This.

CGC has yet to acknowledge theres any sort of problem even though they know its been going on for months now. They're continuing to knowingly damage other peoples property by using a defective product, while at the same time making their "trusted grades" completely meaningless.     This is really really bad.   Im not sending in anything to them until this is addressed and proven to be fixed.    Ive got about 500 books here ready to submit that might go somewhere else now.   

[MadGenius]

This issue will trickle down to dealers soon enough. Maybe once the big dealers realize nobody wants to buy slabs with cert numbers 43XXXXXXX through 44XXXXXXXX action will be taken.

[MAY1979]

On 7/28/2024 at 11:33 AM, MadGenius said:

This issue will trickle down to dealers soon enough. Maybe once the big dealers realize nobody wants to buy slabs with cert numbers 43XXXXXXX through 44XXXXXXXX action will be taken.

That will take a very a long time for the word to get around

- Initially dealers will be combative to anyone who tells them
- If interest declines they will attribute to market conditions they will then resort to their standard method of stating the market is great, strong etc and money is flowing in the hope that the rubes will believe it.
- Eventually reality will set in and they will begin something akin to the 5 stages of grief

All above is predicated on enough people becoming "in the know" and I'm not sure if or when that might occur... if a simpleton like me knows that then be sure CGC does as well

 

What I think dealers are now first starting to become aware is; As I mentioned in previous posts the notches at top and bottom of inner well are damaging books . I've returned 4 to ebay sellers and MCS recently - all returns were paid for by the sellers/merchant.

That type of $$$ hit is immediate and immutable.  Those sellers will never get the costs for return shipping back!

Pics of 2 of my recent returns for that type of damage - both were slabbed in 2023 - before the damage both were 9.8's. The bottom pic - although probably not  discernible in the pic, there are also tiny tears Note that in both the damage is exact same shape as the notches. Older slab wells did not have those notches

 

 

 

 

Edited July 28 by MAR1979

[LordRahl]

On 7/28/2024 at 10:17 AM, MAR1979 said:

That will take a very a long time for the word to get around

- Initially dealers will be combative to anyone who tells them
- If interest declines they will attribute to market conditions they will then resort to their standard method of stating the market is great, strong etc and money is flowing in the hope that the rubes will believe it.
- Eventually reality will set in and they will begin something akin to the 5 stages of grief

All above is predicated on enough people becoming "in the know" and I'm not sure if or when that might occur...

 

What I think dealers are now first starting to become aware is; As I mentioned in previous posts this I've returned 4 alone to ebay sellers and MCS recently - all returns were paid for by the sellers/merchant.

That type of $$$ hit is immediate and immutable.

 

 

This will get sped up if a bunch of people stop submitting to CGC and go with PSA instead. I expect at least initially for PSA prices to be close to CGC prices. Maybe not at the high 5 figure and above level but certainly for books valued at a couple grand and less. CBCS prices at first were very comparable to CGC, it took some time for people to realize CBCS over-graded relative to CGC. The same will happen with PSA however if they do it right, no reason they can't hold that position and take a major chunk of market share from CGC when CGC's product is damaging the very thing it's supposed to protect. If they fix it immediately, this will go the way of reholder-gate and no one will be talking about it in 6 months however the longer they bury their head in the sand and the more books get damaged, the more chance PSA has to take the market lead position.

[MAY1979]

On 7/28/2024 at 1:29 PM, LordRahl said:

This will get sped up if a bunch of people stop submitting to CGC and go with PSA instead. I expect at least initially for PSA prices to be close to CGC prices. Maybe not at the high 5 figure and above level but certainly for books valued at a couple grand and less. CBCS prices at first were very comparable to CGC, it took some time for people to realize CBCS over-graded relative to CGC. The same will happen with PSA however if they do it right, no reason they can't hold that position and take a major chunk of market share from CGC when CGC's product is damaging the very thing it's supposed to protect. If they fix it immediately, this will go the way of reholder-gate and no one will be talking about it in 6 months however the longer they bury their head in the sand and the more books get damaged, the more chance PSA has to take the market lead position.

CGC will be safe as the lead position for quite while as perceptions change slowly, however revenue is all CGC's parent is concerned with.  That is where damage in the short-mid-then long term is most likley. Say PSA takes 20-25% of CGC revenue in the first 2 years - the Blackstone (and CGC?) Execs will take negative hits to their Bonus'. They won't like that, not at all... Then the ? is does Blackstone seek to right the ship or the Exec's seeking to pad their bonus' put together the business case to cut CGC loose (sell them off)?

Those who do not understand that in Corporate America most things are short-term bonus driven, have likley never worked in any role above the lower trenches for a larger Corporation. 
 

Edited July 28 by MAR1979

[LordRahl]

On 7/28/2024 at 10:37 AM, MAR1979 said:

CGC will be safe as the lead position for quite while as perceptions change slowly, however revenue is all CGC's parent is concerned with.  That is where damage in the short-mid-then long term is most likley. Say PSA takes 20-25% of CGC revenue in the first 2 years - the Blackstone (and CGC?) Exec will take bonus hits. They won't like that... Then the ? is does Blackstone seek to right the ship or the Execs seeking to pad their bonus put together the business case to cut CGC loose (sell them off)?

Those who do not understand that in Corp America most things are short-term bonus driven, have likley never worked in any role above the lower trenches for a larger Corporation. 

 

Agreed with all of this. That 20% hit is inevitable though, regardless of this inner well problem. Even if everything was hunky dory there is always a chunk of people that will try out the new guy because they are dissatisfied with something or maybe just curious to try out the new guy or as I expect PSA to initially be cheaper, a lower cost is attractive to those submitting moderns where the margins are very thin. It's PSA expanding that initial 20% that will come down to things like CGC damaging books with their inner well. From a Blackrock perspective, I'm sure they are aware that revenue will take a hit with PSA coming into the picture. It is a well established brand in third party grading, this is no PGX or even CBCS which did not initially have the Beckett brand behind it. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 7/28/2024 at 10:17 AM, MAR1979 said:

- Initially dealers will be combative to anyone who tells them

 

[DaveSFU]

On 7/27/2024 at 2:31 PM, MadGenius said:

@DanJD Are your recently reholdered books sealed tightly on all four sides? I'm assuming so...

Until proven otherwise, I will point to that change in the encapsulation process as the cause of the curved inner well.

I think this is the case as well.    Theyre clearly not curved prior to encapsulation or they wouldnt be used, and theyre curved immediately after encapsulation before they get packed for mailing at CGC.  Not many steps between point A and point B

[CGC Mike]

On 7/28/2024 at 10:52 AM, DaveSFU said:

@CGC Mike I know you've washed your hands of this issue, but this isn't good.

I will make sure the decision makers are aware of our customers feelings regarding this.  That is all I have to say.  

[Ninja0215]

I have a re-holder and a re submit going out today. My last submission  was fine but I'm waiting on one to come back still.

 

I want to se how these turn out. . 

[BraveDave]

On 7/28/2024 at 10:52 AM, DaveSFU said:

This.

CGC has yet to acknowledge theres any sort of problem even though they know its been going on for months now. They're continuing to knowingly damage other peoples property by using a defective product, while at the same time making their "trusted grades" completely meaningless.     This is really really bad.   Im not sending in anything to them until this is addressed and proven to be fixed.    Ive got about 500 books here ready to submit that might go somewhere else now.   

They reassured me in writing that there are no issues. In writing, directly in response to my concern about this specific issue. I pointed out the discussion on the forum and they relayed it to a manager. I said I would NOT grade my books if there was an issue that could damage them. I photographed all my books and made videos of the ones of highest value, so there is clear evidence of the submitted condition. 
 

So of course I am relying on statements that there is no issue with the encapsulation process. Otherwise how could they respond, in writing, that there is no problem? After conferring with a manager… and after I clearly raised the specific issue (and the existence of this ongoing discussion).  
 

For others, I suggest good documentation. I will leave it at that.

Edited July 29 by BraveDave