Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 25 25

[LordRahl]

On 8/5/2024 at 9:54 PM, Stefan_W said:

I buy comic collections in varying sizes that total an average of about 10 thousand comics per year give or take. The ways in which books are stored in those collections varies, and I am very accustomed to seeing varying degrees of bends in comics if boxes are stored away that are not completely full. Mixed in with this, of course, is reading wear in some collections but not others (I've bought pristine modern collections). I have had to sort, organize, grade, and sometimes press comics that have been through all types of different stress. A C-curve that is approx a half an inch or less depending on the thickness of the book is what a case will allow, and I have worked on hundreds of raw books that I bought with curves of that size. Please keep in mind that these collections have often been stored in that position for a decade or more. I don't consider the curve itself to be a problem in the specific context of collection buying. The big problem with what is happening is the books are stuck in a position where they look pretty bad, for what they are, instead of looking really sharp. This means that if someone hates the way their slab looks they have to get it re-pressed and reholdered when it should have been done right to begin with. 

It is a discussion forum so you can doubt or not doubt whatever you like. I am a fact person, and I form opinions by testing things out and using direct evidence whenever possible. If someone presents evidence that shows something I had not considered I am more than happy to change my mind. So far nothing I have seen leads me to believe books are being damaged specifically by the bend in the inner well. If someone presents solid evidence that changes my mind down the road then so be it, but it hasn't happened so far. 

I don't think anyone said that the damage being caused can't be pressed out, I certainly did not. But take a pristine raw copy that currently lays totally flat and grades a 9.8 and put it in that well with a 1/2" bend and leave it in there for a decade and I guarantee you will break out a book that no longer lays flat and is no longer a 9.8, even if it doesn't sustain any visible spine stress. Now, can that curve then be pressed out? Probably. But, should it have to be? No it shouldn't because the product that is meant to protect it should be doing its job and currently it's not. What I'm describing is damage. Just because it can be fixed with a press does not mean it's not damage.

Edited August 6 by LordRahl

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 8/5/2024 at 9:54 PM, Stefan_W said:

So far nothing I have seen leads me to believe books are being damaged specifically by the bend in the inner well. If someone presents solid evidence that changes my mind down the road then so be it, but it hasn't happened so far. 

 

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[RockMyAmadeus]

https://phys.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/University_Physics/University_Physics_(OpenStax)/Book%3A_University_Physics_I_-_Mechanics_Sound_Oscillations_and_Waves_(OpenStax)/12%3A_Static_Equilibrium_and_Elasticity/12.04%3A_Stress_Strain_and_Elastic_Modulus_(Part_1)

 

[DanJD]

On 8/5/2024 at 11:54 PM, Stefan_W said:

I buy comic collections in varying sizes that total an average of about 10 thousand comics per year give or take. The ways in which books are stored in those collections varies, and I am very accustomed to seeing varying degrees of bends in comics if boxes are stored away that are not completely full. Mixed in with this, of course, is reading wear in some collections but not others (I've bought pristine modern collections). I have had to sort, organize, grade, and sometimes press comics that have been through all types of different stress. A C-curve that is approx a half an inch or less depending on the thickness of the book is what a case will allow, and I have worked on hundreds of raw books that I bought with curves of that size. Please keep in mind that these collections have often been stored in that position for a decade or more. I don't consider the curve itself to be a problem in the specific context of collection buying. The big problem with what is happening is the books are stuck in a position where they look pretty bad, for what they are, instead of looking really sharp. This means that if someone hates the way their slab looks they have to get it re-pressed and reholdered when it should have been done right to begin with. 

It is a discussion forum so you can doubt or not doubt whatever you like. I am a fact person, and I form opinions by testing things out and using direct evidence whenever possible. If someone presents evidence that shows something I had not considered I am more than happy to change my mind. So far nothing I have seen leads me to believe books are being damaged specifically by the bend in the inner well. If someone presents solid evidence that changes my mind down the road then so be it, but it hasn't happened so far. 

Enough stress was put on other’s books including mine to make many small color breaking ticks that can never be fixed.  One of mine right in the center breaks color close to a half inch in.  Maybe it’s the combination of bending and pressure built up in the sealed slab to cause more damage than stored books you have seen.  I don’t care why or how.  That’s CGCs problem to figure out.  Why are scientific formulas needed to prove that the damage being caused by a case meant to protect and preserve is not severe?  The fact that people have to discuss which books are impacted and to what degree is proof enough that this is not ok.  As a buyer, I am very hesitant purchasing any valuable, higher grade book slabbed this year.  

[electricprune]

I just received a very small modern sub back. It was 5 books but only one was mine. The inner well is essentially a bowl and there are at least seven bends on the top of the spine, some color breaking. I wish it was easier to get good pictures of the bends.

I didn’t look at the other four books I submitted for a friend. I wish I did, but I’m not sure there’s any recourse if CGC is saying this is the new normal.

[DanJD]

On 8/6/2024 at 7:20 AM, electricprune said:

I just received a very small modern sub back. It was 5 books but only one was mine. The inner well is essentially a bowl and there are at least seven bends on the top of the spine, some color breaking. I wish it was easier to get good pictures of the bends.

I didn’t look at the other four books I submitted for a friend. I wish I did, but I’m not sure there’s any recourse if CGC is saying this is the new normal.

My suggestion would be to contact CS and not take “that’s normal” as an answer.  They should re-press, re-grade, and compensate you for the damage that can’t be pressed out.  

[DanJD]

As a side note, I personally think sellers that get more books slab regularly should be more concerned.  This is anecdotal, but just recently I was about to buy a book from a seller on this forum.  If this was a few months back, I would have just bought it and not thought twice.  Because of this warped inner well, I decided not to risk it.  I didn’t even know if the book was warped or not.  It just wasn’t worth the risk spending $400 on a book that might have this defect.  I decided to wait and find one in person that I know I’ll be happy with.  A few days later the seller dropped the book by like $50 or $60 and it sold to someone else.  This inner well issue cost that seller that $50.  As word spreads on this issue, this may not just be an anecdotal one off.  Whether you think it’s a problem or not, if enough people do, it becomes that sellers problem.  That extra “market value” CGC provides over competition can disappear if this is not fixed.  

[MadGenius]

On 8/6/2024 at 12:54 AM, Stefan_W said:

I buy comic collections in varying sizes that total an average of about 10 thousand comics per year give or take. The ways in which books are stored in those collections varies, and I am very accustomed to seeing varying degrees of bends in comics if boxes are stored away that are not completely full. Mixed in with this, of course, is reading wear in some collections but not others (I've bought pristine modern collections). I have had to sort, organize, grade, and sometimes press comics that have been through all types of different stress. A C-curve that is approx a half an inch or less depending on the thickness of the book is what a case will allow, and I have worked on hundreds of raw books that I bought with curves of that size. Please keep in mind that these collections have often been stored in that position for a decade or more. I don't consider the curve itself to be a problem in the specific context of collection buying. The big problem with what is happening is the books are stuck in a position where they look pretty bad, for what they are, instead of looking really sharp. This means that if someone hates the way their slab looks they have to get it re-pressed and reholdered when it should have been done right to begin with. 

It is a discussion forum so you can doubt or not doubt whatever you like. I am a fact person, and I form opinions by testing things out and using direct evidence whenever possible. If someone presents evidence that shows something I had not considered I am more than happy to change my mind. So far nothing I have seen leads me to believe books are being damaged specifically by the bend in the inner well. If someone presents solid evidence that changes my mind down the road then so be it, but it hasn't happened so far. 

Here is a practical experiment to try. Take a book in a bag and board and then apply pressure to the top and bottom. The book will bow in the same way that these inner wells are. Now, take a look at the spine of the book as it bends and you will definitely see new stress lines form as a result of that pressure. This is what is happening with these inner wells. It is not normal and it is not acceptable in any way.

[Stefan_W]

On 8/6/2024 at 9:30 AM, MadGenius said:

Here is a practical experiment to try. Take a book in a bag and board and then apply pressure to the top and bottom. The book will bow in the same way that these inner wells are. Now, take a look at the spine of the book as it bends and you will definitely see new stress lines form as a result of that pressure. This is what is happening with these inner wells. It is not normal and it is not acceptable in any way.

That is flat out an incorrect method that will not produce any valid results. 

If you look back earlier in this thread you will find my post on the tests I did when the topic first came up and what I found. 

[MadGenius]

On 8/6/2024 at 10:12 AM, Stefan_W said:

That is flat out an incorrect method that will not produce any valid results. 

If you look back earlier in this thread you will find my post on the tests I did when the topic first came up and what I found. 

Agree to disagree. I firmly believe the new method of sealing the cases has resulted in too much pressure being exerted on the inner well which, in turn, is causing it to bow.

[EastEnd1]

I haven't read this entire thread but I just took a look at a few modern submissions I recently received back and I see a slight "C" at the spine when I hold the book up against light with the front cover facing up... not enough to cause damage but definitely there.  Interestingly though, when I flip the book over and look again with the back cover facing up, the spine lies perfectly flat.  This seems to have to do with the fact that there is space between the insert and the bottom of the case and so the weight of the book causes a slight bending at the center where there isn't any support... it's gravity.  So I'd think it's possible the stress on the insert can be reduced, or maybe even eliminated so long as the insert isn't permanently bent, by storing the books upright.

[MAY1979]

On 8/6/2024 at 10:32 AM, MadGenius said:

Agree to disagree. I firmly believe the new method of sealing the cases has resulted in too much pressure being exerted on the inner well which, in turn, is causing it to bow.

Most certainly plausible, so too is the heat being applied to each inner well edge one at a time rather than concurrently. I'm also sure there are other possible explanations. What I do know is we will never be informed of the actual root cause.

  

On 8/6/2024 at 10:50 AM, EastEnd1 said:

I haven't read this entire thread but I just took a look at a few modern submissions I recently received back and I see a slight "C" at the spine when I hold the book up against light with the front cover facing up... not enough to cause damage but definitely there.  Interestingly though, when I flip the book over and look again with the back cover facing up, the spine lies perfectly flat.  This seems to have to do with the fact that there is space between the insert and the bottom of the case and so the weight of the book causes a slight bending at the center where there isn't any support... it's gravity.  So I'd think it's possible the stress on the insert can be reduced, or maybe even eliminated so long as the insert isn't permanently bent, by storing the books upright.

I think those who store the slabs horizontally vs upright vertically are exceptions. I've never seen anyone store horizontally or sideways but I'm sure a few do...

Edited August 6 by MAR1979

[RockMyAmadeus]

[Stefan_W]

On 8/6/2024 at 10:32 AM, MadGenius said:

Agree to disagree. I firmly believe the new method of sealing the cases has resulted in too much pressure being exerted on the inner well which, in turn, is causing it to bow.

Yeah, and you are free to believe what you believe but the question is what you can show. I can post that I think ghosts are inhabiting slabs and the inner wells bend as the frightened comic books are trying to run away. It is a discussion forum so we can say what we want. The trick is being accurate and convincing. 

I do personally agree that the new method of sealing cases is linked to all of this simply because of the timing. My best guess is it has to do with sealing all around the outer case while heating it up to create the seal. As that cools, say during the shipping period, plastic can warp as the pressure inside the slab changes. But that a total guess without any testing behind it. The theory about too much pressure is not specific enough. Well sizes did not change when the encapsulation process was modified so no more pressure is being exerted now than a year ago, two years ago, etc back until the current slab style was introduced.

Edited August 6 by Stefan_W

[MadGenius]

On 8/6/2024 at 11:07 AM, Stefan_W said:

Yeah, and you are free to believe what you believe but the question is what you can show. I can post that I think ghosts are inhabiting slabs and the inner wells bend as the frightened comic books are trying to run away. It is a discussion forum so we can say what we want. The trick is being accurate and convincing. 

I do personally agree that the new method of sealing cases is linked to all of this simply because of the timing. My best guess is it has to do with sealing all around the outer case while heating it up to create the seal. As that cools, say during the shipping period, plastic can warp. But that a total guess without any testing behind it. The theory about too much pressure is not specific enough. Well sizes did not change when the encapsulation process was modified so no more pressure is being exerted now than a year ago, two years ago, etc back until this slab style was introduced.

The difference is there used to be a small gap at the top of the slab that is no longer there. Anyone who has cracked out books in the past was able to insert a thin screwdriver head and get the case open. That no longer works because the top is sealed air tight along with the other three sides. I think this is what is causing the excess pressure within the case.

[DanJD]

On 8/6/2024 at 10:07 AM, Stefan_W said:

Yeah, and you are free to believe what you believe but the question is what you can show. I can post that I think ghosts are inhabiting slabs and the inner wells bend as the frightened comic books are trying to run away. It is a discussion forum so we can say what we want. The trick is being accurate and convincing. 

I do personally agree that the new method of sealing cases is linked to all of this simply because of the timing. My best guess is it has to do with sealing all around the outer case while heating it up to create the seal. As that cools, say during the shipping period, plastic can warp as the pressure inside the slab changes. But that a total guess without any testing behind it. The theory about too much pressure is not specific enough. Well sizes did not change when the encapsulation process was modified so no more pressure is being exerted now than a year ago, two years ago, etc back until the current slab style was introduced.

I could be wrong, but I think you are talking about different kinds of pressure.  The one I was possibly mentioning was sealed too tight, airplane type pressure combined with the “cooling warp” effect not squeezing pressure based on well size.  I may be way off, but it doesn’t matter.  Warping is not good no matter how it is created.   None of my older slabs that I purchased have this warped effect. Something changed recently.  When you sell a product, you’re responsible for testing the product to make sure it works properly.

[Stefan_W]

On 8/6/2024 at 11:10 AM, MadGenius said:

The difference is there used to be a small gap at the top of the slab that is no longer there. Anyone who has cracked out books in the past was able to insert a thin screwdriver head and get the case open. That no longer works because the top is sealed air tight along with the other three sides. I think this is what is causing the excess pressure within the case.

It goes beyond that. In the past the seal on the cases was mostly focused on where the pegs that are around the corners. There were gaps in the seal at the middle of the top, bottom, and sides. The new cases have a complete seal all the way around. If I am correct with my guess, the process of heating up the seal means there is less air inside of the case, and when it is completely sealed up a small vacuum is created. If you have ever canned stuff of made pickles, think of the process of heating it all up to create a seal at the end. When it cool the top of a canned container will pop as the air pressure inside changes. The amount of air inside a comic case is very different but the idea is the same. 

Edited August 6 by Stefan_W

[DanJD]

On 8/6/2024 at 10:27 AM, Stefan_W said:

It goes beyond that. In the past the seal on the cases was mostly focused on where the pegs are around the corners. There were gaps in the seal at the middle of the top, bottom, and sides. The new cases have a complete seal all the way around. If I am correct with my guess, the process of heating up the seal means there is less air inside of the case, and when it is completely sealed up a small vacuum is created. If you have ever canned stuff of made pickles, think of the process of heating it all up to create a seal at the end. When it cool the top of a canned container will pop as the air pressure inside changes. The amount of air inside a comic case is very different but the idea is the same. 

Sounds like everyone is saying the same thing…Agree to agree.

[MadGenius]

On 8/6/2024 at 11:27 AM, Stefan_W said:

It goes beyond that. In the past the seal on the cases was mostly focused on where the pegs are around the corners. There were gaps in the seal at the middle of the top, bottom, and sides. The new cases have a complete seal all the way around. If I am correct with my guess, the process of heating up the seal means there is less air inside of the case, and when it is completely sealed up a small vacuum is created. If you have ever canned stuff of made pickles, think of the process of heating it all up to create a seal at the end. When it cool the top of a canned container will pop as the air pressure inside changes. The amount of air inside a comic case is very different but the idea is the same. 

I think we're saying pretty much saying the same thing in different ways. I'm also attributing the curved inner well to the tight seal around all four sides. 

[Stefan_W]

On 8/6/2024 at 11:30 AM, DanJD said:

Sounds like everyone is saying the same thing…Agree to agree.

Yeah, well, I've been saying exactly the same thing for days and people are lining up to disagree with me.