Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 25 25

[DanJD]

On 8/6/2024 at 10:35 AM, Stefan_W said:

Yeah, well, I've been saying exactly the same thing for days and people are lining up to disagree with me. 

It seems there is no disagreement on the potential cause of the warping but there appears to be a disagreement on the possible acceptable degree of damage being caused to the books by said warping.  You compare this to your lot purchases bowing in under filled boxes.  I would consider those boxes not properly stored and at risk of damage.  Maybe some get damaged and some don’t.  When buying a lot of comics, that’s probably acceptable and expected.  When buying encapsulation to protect a high grade collectible, I think that’s completely unacceptable.

[Stefan_W]

On 8/6/2024 at 11:43 AM, DanJD said:

It seems there is no disagreement on the potential cause of the warping but there appears to be a disagreement on the possible acceptable degree of damage being caused to the books by said warping.  You compare this to your lot purchases bowing in under filled boxes.  I would consider those boxes not properly stored and at risk of damage.  Maybe some get damaged and some don’t.  When buying a lot of comics, that’s probably acceptable and expected.  When buying encapsulation to protect a high grade collectible, I think that’s completely unacceptable.

No one is arguing whether it is acceptable either. Regardless of whether the book is actually damaged people pay to have their book presented in the best way possible. This aint it, and it needs to be corrected ASAP. 

The disagreement over whether books are damaged from the warp in the well is really important because people need to know whether their books have been damaged by CGC. I took the time to test it out and did not see any reason to believe they have been, but others have gone down the "CGC has damaged my books" path. That imperfections are more pronounced due to the bow, which makes it look as though their book is damaged (or no longer in grade), is pretty much all the evidence provided in that direction. In a court of public opinion that side wins, but when examining the actual facts available (note: opinion does not equal fact) it does not. Pictures of books that have imperfections which could have been there in a less pronounced form prior to encapsulation is not really evidence since there is no disagreement that the warp makes imperfections look worse.  

Anyway, I have said my piece and unless someone takes the time to actually rigorously and accurately test whether books are damaged I feel like we are just going to continue circling around the mulberry bush. People can believe what they want and base those beliefs on anything they want. 

[DanJD]

On 8/6/2024 at 11:10 AM, Stefan_W said:

No one is arguing whether it is acceptable either. Regardless of whether the book is actually damaged people pay to have their book presented in the best way possible. This aint it, and it needs to be corrected ASAP. 

The disagreement over whether books are damaged from the warp in the well is really important because people need to know whether their books have been damaged by CGC. I took the time to test it out and did not see any reason to believe they have been, but others have gone down the "CGC has damaged my books" path. That imperfections are more pronounced due to the bow, which makes it look as though their book is damaged (or no longer in grade), is pretty much all the evidence provided in that direction. In a court of public opinion that side wins, but when examining the actual facts available (note: opinion does not equal fact) it does not. Pictures of books that have imperfections which could have been there in a less pronounced form prior to encapsulation is not really evidence since there is no disagreement that the warp makes imperfections look worse.  

Anyway, I have said my piece and unless someone takes the time to actually rigorously and accurately test whether books are damaged I feel like we are just going to continue circling around the mulberry bush. People can believe what they want and base those beliefs on anything they want. 

You keep saying your opinion is fact and others are unproven.  Agree to disagree…

A non-color breaking spine tick “made more pronounce” and now breaks color is irreversible damage (fact). 

Edited August 6 by DanJD

[MAY1979]

On 7/31/2024 at 12:46 PM, DaveSFU said:

Good news everyone.  This no longer is considered damage and will get you a 9.8

Please explain how that book is 9.8?

[kimik]

On 8/6/2024 at 11:37 AM, MAR1979 said:

Please explain how that book is 9.8?

It was likely graded as a 9.8 before encapsulation and then damaged during the process. I have had Silver Age 9.2s and 9.4s come back with staple tears/fully blown staples due to damage during encapsulation. 

[Ryan.]

On 8/6/2024 at 11:35 AM, Stefan_W said:

Yeah, well, I've been saying exactly the same thing for days and people are lining up to disagree with me. 

Welcome to the internet!

[MadGenius]

The 8 books I sent back to CGC for pressing/reholder for the warped inner well just moved to QC. I'm scared to death to see what these will look like when I get them back. It shouldn't be this way...

Edited August 6 by MadGenius

[joeypost]

You would think with all the books I submit for myself and others, I would see more of the warped inner well problem. Personally, I cannot ever remember having that issue.

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 8/6/2024 at 9:10 AM, Stefan_W said:

Pictures of books that have imperfections which could have been there in a less pronounced form prior to encapsulation 

On 8/6/2024 at 9:10 AM, Stefan_W said:

unless someone takes the time to actually rigorously and accurately test whether books are damaged 

[MAY1979]

On 8/6/2024 at 2:50 PM, joeypost said:

You would think with all the books I submit for myself and others, I would see more of the warped inner well problem. Personally, I cannot ever remember having that issue.

You are a larger customer than most.  Which brings forth some speculative questions:

1) Do larger clients receive greater attention to QC?

2) Are inner wells used for larger clients from different stock/shipments CGC has received?  Meaning they do so much biz with some submitters that supplies are set aside in advance to ensure fewer delays in event of an unforseen supply shortage  (aka good business) - perhaps the supplies are even stored in separate spaces.

3) If issue resides in the sealing procedure, is that now done differently, likley more time consuming manner, for larger clients. Which wraps into #1 in this list.

@joeypost you are highly respected by many including myself and you have earned trust time and time again, were you looking at the sides of the books since beginning of the year or only recently when this came to your attention?  If only recently do you feel it's plausible you may have had affected books earlier in year ?  If in May CGC did become aware of the issue and for their larger clients started to implement or pilot something akin to #2 and #3 above then all the submissions you have received back since you personally became aware may not have been affected?

--------

Yeah it borders on conspiracy but still it's very interesting that the largest submitter's who have weighed in here seem to have noted zero affected slabs but all small time submitter's and those who have purchased 2024 slabbed books from other sources seem to have ultra high levels of slabs with issues.  Logically there must be some difference in the process and or supplies used.

 

Edited August 6 by MAR1979

[RockMyAmadeus]

[kimik]

On 8/1/2024 at 9:29 PM, greggy said:

Here, you can scrutinize this book for yourself. 

Looks like a solid 9.0 with all of the spine tics/creases going in.

Edited August 6 by kimik

[joeypost]

On 8/6/2024 at 3:16 PM, MAR1979 said:

You are a larger customer than most.  Which brings forth some speculative questions:

1) Do larger clients receive greater attention to QC?

2) Are inner wells used for larger clients from different stock/shipments CGC has received?  Meaning they do so much biz with some submitters that supplies are set aside in advance to ensure fewer delays in event of an unforseen supply shortage  (aka good business) - perhaps the supplies are even stored in separate spaces.

3) If issue resides in the sealing procedure, is that now done differently, likley more time consuming manner, for larger clients. Which wraps into #1 in this list.

@joeypost you are highly respected by many including myself and you have earned trust time and time again, were you looking at the sides of the books since beginning of the year or only recently when this came to your attention?  If only recently do you feel it's plausible you may have had affected books earlier in year ?  If in May CGC did become aware of the issue and for their larger clients started to implement or pilot something akin to #2 and #3 above then all the submissions you have received back since you personally became aware may not have been affected?

--------

Yeah it borders on conspiracy but still it's very interesting that the largest submitter's who have weighed in here seem to have noted zero affected slabs but all small time submitter's and those who have purchased 2024 slabbed books from other sources seem to have ultra high levels of slabs with issues.  Logically there must be some difference in the process and or supplies used.

 

I can only speak for the books I personally get back and can inspect, but I have had minimal QC issues from the beginning. Getting things done in a timely manner is a whole different animal, but I can only remember a few books with either labels that were incorrect or had inner well issues. 

[MAY1979]

On 8/6/2024 at 3:44 PM, joeypost said:

I can only speak for the books I personally get back and can inspect, but I have had minimal QC issues from the beginning. Getting things done in a timely manner is a whole different animal, but I can only remember a few books with either labels that were incorrect or had inner well issues. 

Very possible and good business if a big client and in effect large scale influencer (you are man and have earned it) like yourself is given the VIP Red Carpet Treatment to the extent as CGC's and their parent company internal rules and regulations permit.  That does not mean will be perfect for you from CGC but on the whole better than the average customer. Which again, giving preferential treatment to your firms most important clients is tenant of great business.

Edited August 6 by MAR1979

[kimik]

On 8/6/2024 at 1:44 PM, joeypost said:

I can only speak for the books I personally get back and can inspect, but I have had minimal QC issues from the beginning. Getting things done in a timely manner is a whole different animal, but I can only remember a few books with either labels that were incorrect or had inner well issues. 

 Remember my 50 or slabs from a couple of years ago? Exact same issues as people are seeing in this thread now. 

[LordRahl]

On 8/6/2024 at 11:08 AM, kimik said:

It was likely graded as a 9.8 before encapsulation and then damaged during the process. I have had Silver Age 9.2s and 9.4s come back with staple tears/fully blown staples due to damage during encapsulation. 

You mean something like this?

[kimik]

On 8/6/2024 at 3:16 PM, LordRahl said:

You mean something like this?

Ouch. Not that bad, but staples fully pulled through the cover after getting snagged on the edge of the inner well.

Edited August 6 by kimik

[MAY1979]

^ IME that is an outlier for the oldest school slabs. Logical or not something about that old label that makes me feel good wish I could say the same for post 2015 slabs.

[DaveSFU]

On 8/6/2024 at 1:37 PM, MAR1979 said:

Please explain how that book is 9.8?

Im not going to try to analyze curve % or the length of time in a holder.   And honestly i dont care the reason its happening. The point is it is happening.  Those are just two of the books i sent in that they graded 9.8, by the time CGC took images of them for the registry which was likely minutes after encapsulation, they had visible damage.  They came back to me C shaped.  One is even S shaped.   

Right now my last communication was that CS told me my books aren't damaged, inner wells aren't bent, theres no problem at all and they were being sent back to me as is.  Then they suddenly (and i mean like minutes later after my last CS email) moved backward two steps in the process and have been sitting at G/E/I for since mid last week and now nobody will talk to me.    Update - also just got charged by CCS for a submission they swore up and down would be moved over to ME instead.  

Edited August 6 by DaveSFU
update

[Ninja0215]

Does anyone recall what cert numbers were affected? I'm looking at my amazing spider-man 41 and I see a noticeable bend.