Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 25 25

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 8/16/2024 at 9:12 PM, MAR1979 said:

1975-present (aka Modern from a submission standpoint) issue is epidemic.

pre-1975 seems to be a lot less affected

Large 1975-present book submitter's, JoeyPost for example, have alluded to not being affected.

I know you mean well my friend, and there is load of wheat to separate from chaff here, but I strongly recommend you read through the entire thread. Gaining the knowledge given your "stake" IMHO is crucial.

Lol it is appreciated, yes bronze is vintage and 1975 to present is considered modern under the submission form, which is why I asked. Someone had mentioned it went back further this bowing, but only now causes bad effects? Edit to ad time wise @MAR1979

Forest for the trees for me 😂 just I get the all encompassing bad parts and no one takes has disputed that too much, but only to say that some books are worse than others when it comes to effects? So now I'm wondering if the bow is still there in vintage but no effects.

It IS a fine line to say 44 and 43 starting numbers so thank you for that my friend. Thin books imo aren't per se affected with effects badly, but they almost look pitiful looking in the slab, last pics I posted (and idk how to explain it) Thin books look just that thin in the slab, while I'd usually say that I couldn't ever tell the thickness of a book from a common size slab.

It also got me to thinking if there are different size wells to avoid scs but again above my paygrade.

In short I've read the thread pretty much, which is why I asked the way I did, was double checking for clarity. Even though I kind of knew the answer with you.  "mar1979" after all.

 

Edited August 17 by ADAMANTIUM

[ADAMANTIUM]

It IS a fine line so thanks 

Slight edit

[MAY1979]

^ not sure of which numerical series it starts but for now I'm considering 434 and lower as "safe".  435 & 436 may be a slab by slab basis?

Anything CGC 437 series or higher is an instant swipe left for me.

Edited August 17 by MAR1979

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 8/16/2024 at 9:28 PM, MAR1979 said:

^ not sure of which numerical series it starts but for now I'm considering 434 and lower as "safe".  435 & 436 may be a slab by slab basis?

Anything CGC 437 series or higher is an instant swipe left for me.

Good to know. I know we're only a few here and I haven't heard all the social media posts, so thanks for taking the time for me.

[crazyhips]

On 8/16/2024 at 10:28 PM, MAR1979 said:

^ not sure of which numerical series it starts but for now I'm considering 434 and lower as "safe".  435 & 436 may be a slab by slab basis?

Anything CGC 437 series or higher is an instant swipe left for me.

I may have dodged a very expensive bullet and it might be another data point to add to the hypothesis of vintage books less affected but here is the edge of my Batman 155 in a 437 case. It also has the tab in it  

Edited August 17 by crazyhips

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 8/16/2024 at 3:43 PM, Stefan_W said:

Here is an experiment that I figured would not work, but I tried it anyway. I took 5 slabs that all have bends in the inner well and laid them flat backside down for 24 hours, and frontside down for 24 hours. No appreciable change to the bend.

The premise was that books flattened a short while after being removed from the inner well and laid flat in a bag and board. I realized that the hard inner well would likely prevent the books from straightening, but I tried it anyway since there are very few things we can try with the entire case sealed shut. 

Providing photo documentation in case anyone is interested. Photo 1 is before, the second photo is after. I just realized that one of the photos turned for some reason - apologies, I hate I-phone pics because of this! 

I will provide photos will inner well measurements for different ages of slabs in a few days. 

 

Ah you meant you didn't have the measurements on wells without the bend, which makes sense as those aren't recent or file 13. Well I'll stop looking for the original posts, but hey you tried, which is something I'd hope cgc would rectify. Not all is golden but knowledge is power, if only we ALL realize that if the paper is willing to reconform in a bag and board then it is definitely doing the same with in a inner bowing well, and that is unfortunate.

It might not appear as damage, but cgc stating nothing to see here without presumably admitting that bows weren't done in the past is just.

 

Edited August 17 by ADAMANTIUM

[MAY1979]

self-redacted

Edited August 17 by MAR1979

[crazyhips]

On 8/16/2024 at 11:00 PM, MAR1979 said:

I think I need to re-tabulate.....

Not necessarily. This was a very early 437. Like you, I’m now avoiding anything from this year until this is fixed.

[ADAMANTIUM]

I mentioned the thin books in a slab just looking, well, thin, and not normally judging the thickness of a book through a slab...

Is it possible the edges of the slab or all of it together got more clear to now we noticed it where before we did not? Haha

Only halfway joking but

[MAY1979]

Update:

1975-present (aka Modern from a submission standpoint) issue is epidemic.

pre-1975 (aka Vintage) appears significantly less affected. Still Best to proceed with caution, on a slab by slab basis.

Large 1975-present book submitter's, like JoeyPost for example, have alluded to not being affected.
 

My new current SOP:

I'm not sure of exactly within which numerical series the issue begins, but for now I'm considering 434 and lower as "safe".  435 or 436 may be a slab by slab basis? Still much safer to avoid until pin pointed.

ALL1975-present CGC 437 series or higher is an instant swipe left for me.
Pre-1975 CGC 437 series or higher, is slab by slab basis, which means no online purchases! Must see in hand first.

Edited August 17 by MAR1979

[LordRahl]

On 8/16/2024 at 8:00 PM, MAR1979 said:

I think I need to re-tabulate.....

Why? That looks flat to me, which would be in line with the other vintage subs I've seen so far.

[LordRahl]

On 8/16/2024 at 7:02 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I thought  the @LordRahl boardie said vintage or bronze and older weren't the problem?

Or are we talking late 70s books?

Tons of bronze books fall under "modern" as far as CGC goes. Weird I know when a 50 year old book is a "modern".

Edited August 17 by LordRahl
typo

[MAY1979]

On 8/16/2024 at 11:33 PM, LordRahl said:

Why? That looks flat to me, which would be in line with the other vintage subs I've seen so far.

Agreed.

 

BTW: I was just looking at 2 boxes of my slabs; One is all 2nd Gen slab's, each Comic is flat as pancake...  Same for a box I have with all circa 2019 slabs. 

I do miss those older slabs... "All Good Things".  oh well with the extra funds my T206 HOF collection will grow.

 

 

 

Edited August 17 by MAR1979

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 8/16/2024 at 10:43 PM, MAR1979 said:

On 8/16/2024 at 10:33 PM, LordRahl said:

Why? That looks flat to me, which would be in line with the other vintage subs I've seen so far.

Agreed.

I was going to say the same but had patience to not jump the gun, and he said nearly dogged the bullet so to speak, so thought he might have meant that it was straighter or flatter!

Even some of my moderns looked somewhat flat. If I'm feeling extra "happy or whatever "tomorrow I'll break out my last sub with aussies, as that was higher mid grades to see if worse off or "look worse." If there is a bend it'll determine the conclusion. 

Edited August 17 by ADAMANTIUM

[WernerVonDoom]

Well, the fact that I was about to start sending in a bunch of submissions, I'm really bummed.

[LordRahl]

On 8/17/2024 at 12:06 AM, WernerVonDoom said:

Well, the fact that I was about to start sending in a bunch of submissions, I'm really bummed.

Most of the stuff I see you post is vintage, you should be OK. 

[Ninja0215]

I did crack my ASM 41 ( it was a harder break than I thought, split like broken glass). I pulled the well out, and it kinds looks like Stefan was right! There is still a bend in the book but not as pronounced.  I'm standing firm on the notion that I'm not sending cgc any more books, but this was an interesting find. 

Edited August 17 by Ninja0215

[MAY1979]

On 8/17/2024 at 3:06 AM, WernerVonDoom said:

Well, the fact that I was about to start sending in a bunch of submissions, I'm really bummed.

On 8/17/2024 at 12:00 PM, LordRahl said:

Most of the stuff I see you post is vintage, you should be OK. 

unless the issue is expanding. By that I mean if the root cause is a change in the manufacturer of the inner wells and Vintage was using stock that pre-dated the change at some point that stock will run out.

Yeah huge speculation on my part but since we have no information and CGC ain't saying anything, the question for Werner is does he feel lucky? Me personally I feel why take a chance. My pre-1975 books are fine in their Mylar. Perhaps on some of my minor keys I'll consider the premium slab the Newport Beach/Santa Ana folks will offer...?

Edited August 17 by MAR1979

[Ninja0215]

On 8/17/2024 at 12:38 PM, MAR1979 said:

unless the issue is expanding. By that I mean if the root cause is a change in the manufacturer of the inner wells and Vintage was using stock that pre-dated the change at some point that stock will run out.

Yeah huge speculation on my part but since we have no information and CGC ain't saying anything, the question for Werner is does he feel lucky? Me personally why take a chance my pre-1975 books are fine in their Mylar. Also perhaps on some of my minor keys I'll consider the premium slab the Newport Beach/Santa Ana folks will offer...

I'd be very interested to know what their price point is. I don't really like their slab but I'm intrigued. 

Edited August 17 by Ninja0215

[MAY1979]

On 8/17/2024 at 12:33 PM, Ninja0215 said:

I did crack my ASM 41 ( it was a harder break than I thought, split like broken glass). I pulled the well out, and it kinds looks like Stefan was right! There is still a bend in the book but not as pronounced.  I'm standing firm on the notion that I'm not sending cgc any more books, but this was an interesting find. 

To complete the ledger; you spent all the money to have the book graded and slabbed, Now have cracked it out thus defeating that purpose and are left with a book that is worse (even if only by a little), due to the Slab inner well issue, then when you sent it in!

I'd love the defenders to explain how that is in any way a positive thing. 

Where I come from what we have here is called a No Win Scenario or in today's vernacular; LOSE-LOSE or translated to Star Trek; Kobayashi Maru.

Which begs the question why on earth would a non-masicist collector continue to submit or purchase (post Nov 2023 slabs)???

Edited August 17 by MAR1979