Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 25 25

[Skytripa]

On 9/5/2024 at 10:44 AM, Stefan_W said:

That was my video. If it is simply human error the problem would have been fixed long ago, at bare minimum once this thread started, by replacing or retraining the human causing the problem with nothing else required. 

If they knew what the problem was it would have been fixed. If they are just now investigating the issue would prove they don't know what the issue is. Your assumptions don't make sense to me.

[Stefan_W]

On 9/5/2024 at 12:15 PM, Skytripa said:

If they knew what the problem was it would have been fixed. If they are just now investigating the issue would prove they don't know what the issue is. Your assumptions don't make sense to me.

Fair enough, I will lay them out to see if the logic makes more sense that way. 

This thread was start on May 14th. Since that time people have been posting pics of impacted books. So the search for why this is going on goes back at least that amount of time, and given inner wells have been bent since the New Year it may be longer. 

In terms of figuring out what to try human error is near the front of the line because it costs nothing to fix. Bob is bending thousands of books so maybe replace Bob. If the same thing is happening when John does it the problem probably wasn't with Bob. I would think at some point manager Doug would watch John and Bob to see if they are doing anything that could cause issues with pretty much all the moderns being pumped out. We actually know this happened in some form based on a comment early in the thread where a manager went in and did not see the issue when examining slabs about to go out.  

When sorting out what makes sense and what doesn't, it makes sense to me that CGC would look at zero cost solutions like human error during encapsulation early on in the process. If Bob bent a few thousand slabs because of shoddy work I am pretty sure CGC management would figure out that maybe Bob should not be doing that anymore. So I reject it at least as the primary source of the issue.

The caveat is if you include decision-making, like selecting materials or trying to speed up the process to crank up the volume of books, in the definition of human error then yeah that very well may be the case if those things are a contributing factor. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 9/5/2024 at 8:20 AM, The Lions Den said:

1) Always inspect your books very closely before and after submitting. I also like to take pictures of them and keep my own detailed grading notes before sending them off into the void.

[LordRahl]

On 9/5/2024 at 9:13 AM, Iconic1s said:

 

They will survive on the numerous retailers out there that are selling brand new pre-sales of "guaranteed 9.8, or even 9.9" of variant after variant of all this modern stuff that publishers are cranking out.  

This may have worked pre social media days. Back then it took a loooong time for info to get around. That is no longer the case. As more and more people find out about this, more and more people will stop buying. It's not just about guys like me that have stopped submitting, it's also about the buying end of this. All these retailers that make their living doing 9.8 presales will find that hard to do if even a third of their customers all of a sudden disappear. 

[LordRahl]

On 9/4/2024 at 5:33 AM, Stefan_W said:

My FedEx is delayed by a day so it should arrive tomorrow. 

Although I have little hope, I'm anxiously awaiting this update. 

[Stefan_W]

On 9/5/2024 at 12:52 PM, LordRahl said:

Although I have little hope, I'm anxiously awaiting this update. 

Me too. I did notice a change in the slabs from the images done by CGC so I have my fingers crossed that it worked.  

[greggy]

On 9/5/2024 at 9:55 AM, Stefan_W said:

Me too. I did notice a change in the slabs from the images done by CGC so I have my fingers crossed that it worked.  

More wedges?

[Stefan_W]

On 9/5/2024 at 1:01 PM, greggy said:

More wedges?

Added these guys back in. Slabs used to have them but then they took them out, maybe because they detract a bit from the eye appeal.

 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 9/5/2024 at 12:07 PM, Stefan_W said:

On 9/5/2024 at 12:01 PM, greggy said:

More wedges?

Added these guys back in. Slabs used to have them but then they took them out, maybe because they detract a bit from the eye appeal.

 

While I know they used them as necessary, I didn't think it was "common?" In case these called for them and helped or are now common, again I wouldn't hazard a guess. 

[Stefan_W]

On 9/5/2024 at 1:11 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

While I know they used them as necessary, I didn't think it was "common?" In case these called for them and helped or are now common, again I wouldn't hazard a guess. 

I did not go through everything, but my slabs that are a year or more old have them and none of the recent ones do prior to this order. 

CGC is not making statements so we have to guess at what the attempted fixes are. I am waiting for FedEx to show up to see if the inner wells for this group are still bent. 

[greggy]

On 9/5/2024 at 10:07 AM, Stefan_W said:

Added these guys back in. Slabs used to have them but then they took them out, maybe because they detract a bit from the eye appeal.

 

I did notice that a majority of the one I've checked have them but not all.  Let's see how the two boxes I'm getting will look. 

[Skytripa]

On 9/5/2024 at 11:30 AM, Stefan_W said:

Fair enough, I will lay them out to see if the logic makes more sense that way. 

This thread was start on May 14th. Since that time people have been posting pics of impacted books. So the search for why this is going on goes back at least that amount of time, and given inner wells have been bent since the New Year it may be longer. 

In terms of figuring out what to try human error is near the front of the line because it costs nothing to fix. Bob is bending thousands of books so maybe replace Bob. If the same thing is happening when John does it the problem probably wasn't with Bob. I would think at some point manager Doug would watch John and Bob to see if they are doing anything that could cause issues with pretty much all the moderns being pumped out. We actually know this happened in some form based on a comment early in the thread where a manager went in and did not see the issue when examining slabs about to go out.  

When sorting out what makes sense and what doesn't, it makes sense to me that CGC would look at zero cost solutions like human error during encapsulation early on in the process. If Bob bent a few thousand slabs because of shoddy work I am pretty sure CGC management would figure out that maybe Bob should not be doing that anymore. So I reject it at least as the primary source of the issue.

The caveat is if you include decision-making, like selecting materials or trying to speed up the process to crank up the volume of books, in the definition of human error then yeah that very well may be the case if those things are a contributing factor. 

 

Sorry not trying to be rude if I come off that way just trying to get my head around this as is everyone else. With your train of thought wouldn't the manager be at fault for not catching the issue that is still present. I know first hand as well as others there are people looking at books with damage saying everything looks good here. Would still be a human error if managers are also ignoring the problem they are seeing.

Edited September 5 by Skytripa

[Stefan_W]

On 9/5/2024 at 1:17 PM, Skytripa said:

 

Sorry not trying to be rude if I come off that way just trying to get my head around this as is everyone else. With your train of thought wouldn't the manager be at fault for not catching the issue this still present. I know first hand as well as others there are people looking at books with damage saying everything looks good here. Would still be a human error if managers are also ignoring the problem they are seeing.

I completely agree with you, and I dont think you were rude at all. I dont mind answering questions about the positions I take. 

The distinction I am making is I am talking specifically about human error being the source cause of the problem. Managers ignoring something is a massive and very expensive issue, if that did happen, but that did not cause the issue to begin with. Enabled it - yeah for sure, if that is what happened. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 9/5/2024 at 12:14 PM, Stefan_W said:

I did not go through everything, but my slabs that are a year or more old have them and none of the recent ones do prior to this order. 

CGC is not making statements so we have to guess at what the attempted fixes are. I am waiting for FedEx to show up to see if the inner wells for this group are still bent. 

I was just stating that I don't recall the need for them in the 1st place, but would've assumed due to CCS. No default to them I hope, as I don't know what it helped before other than CCS or if now helps with this, so if it is their new default then "I" couldn't hazard a guess or it would take some convincing

Not a bad thing to notice, or if it is in the interim as a fix, which is possible.

 

Edited September 5 by ADAMANTIUM

[Stefan_W]

On 9/5/2024 at 1:25 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

 

Not a bad thing to notice, or if it is in the interim as a fix, which is possible.

 

I noticed it a week ago when my books were shipped out. I am bad at waiting for things as a general rule, and the long weekend made the usual long FedEx trip across the border even longer. 

[DanJD]

On 9/5/2024 at 12:14 PM, greggy said:

I did notice that a majority of the one I've checked have them but not all.  Let's see how the two boxes I'm getting will look. 

This wedge was used in my ME from my submission.  I only had the single book though.  As I mentioned then, it helped but was still warped the second time and the cover still had a a few ripples along the spine.  This was after they converted my ME to a “reholder” and repressed the book (which I am not sure how they can repress without a regrade since they are altering the appearance of the book) so there should have been no waviness again.  Obviously the color breaks won’t go away.

My point is the wedge might help but is not a complete solution or fix.

 

[MadGenius]

It's been assumed that this issue is only affecting Modern (1975-present) books, but are we certain of that? If we are, then why is it only affecting that segment of books? There's not much difference in structure between a 1974 comic and a 1976 comic for example. It could be argued that ultra-moderns are printed on better quality paper than the newsprint used back in the day, so theoretically shouldn't more modern books be sturdier and thus more resistant to bending than older books?

If only modern tier books are being affected, then we can rule out many outside factors such as environment and materials. The answer can almost only be human error if, in fact, the warped inner well is only showing up on modern tier books. 

[DanJD]

On 9/5/2024 at 12:50 PM, MadGenius said:

It's been assumed that this issue is only affecting Modern (1975-present) books, but are we certain of that? If we are, then why is it only affecting that segment of books? There's not much difference in structure between a 1974 comic and a 1976 comic for example. It could be argued that ultra-moderns are printed on better quality paper than the newsprint used back in the day, so theoretically shouldn't more modern books be sturdier and thus more resistant to bending than older books?

If only modern tier books are being affected, then we can rule out many outside factors such as environment and materials. The answer can almost only be human error if, in fact, the warped inner well is only showing up on modern tier books. 

Could the width of an older book versus bronze to newer be a factor in how it sits in the inner well?  I would think height would have an impact more if squeezing along the spine to make a bow shape but I believe height dimension has been consistent compared to width through different years.  I could be wrong.

Edit: Also could be why the wedge helps a little by shifting the book sideways in the well.

Edited September 5 by DanJD

[LordRahl]

On 9/5/2024 at 10:50 AM, MadGenius said:

It's been assumed that this issue is only affecting Modern (1975-present) books, but are we certain of that? If we are, then why is it only affecting that segment of books? There's not much difference in structure between a 1974 comic and a 1976 comic for example. It could be argued that ultra-moderns are printed on better quality paper than the newsprint used back in the day, so theoretically shouldn't more modern books be sturdier and thus more resistant to bending than older books?

If only modern tier books are being affected, then we can rule out many outside factors such as environment and materials. The answer can almost only be human error if, in fact, the warped inner well is only showing up on modern tier books. 

We're pretty certain at this point as all of the non moderns being reported are coming back straight. There was 1 instance posted in this thread of a vintage sub with a bent well but that seems like it was fluke and likely unrelated to what is causing the bends on the moderns. If it was more widespread, we'd be seeing it in the non modern subs coming back to people. 

Why can we rule out materials? How do you know modern submission wells aren't different from vintage submission wells? 

[greggy]

I checked one of my two boxes that I just received.

Most but not all had wedges.

Of all the ones with wedges, all were on the spine side except one which was on the bottom and incidentally, this is the only one that one spine break but thankfully, it's a sub-$100 9.8 book.

The ones which did not have any wedges were Sandmans from the 90s - in the early 20s and all look flat with no issues.

Others were for thicker books such as X-men 150 and some later books and some Daredevils in the 170s - only one with no wedge..

I checked the sides and they appears to be straight.  I did notice that the Bones from 95 jhas some curving but not as bad as before but no apparent stress.

The only other book with some apparent stress was a 9.8 X-men 156 with no wedge but it wasn't the pressure on the one spot type.  It was a more of an overall one that would probably disappear if cracked.

I'll report on the other one after my lunch.

It may be later in the day, as I have an eye appointment in an hour and a half.

xoxo

greggy