Are OA prices out of control? 7 7

[rsonenthal]

On 6/4/2024 at 9:08 AM, Xatari said:

I have shared this before on other threads, but this is how I go about my collecting these days and pass along the same feedback to a lot of my new friends entering the hobby. It helps eliminate accumulating too many pages that I’ll have trouble moving later on if my taste changes and also ensures my pages tend to be a bit more liquid if a nicer examples comes along as @Unstoppablejayd mentioned. Flexibility is key in this hobby as one never knows when a coveted piece becomes available. 
 

I guess I could add a third circle to indicate affordability as that is dependent on each prospective collector. 
 

 

I think everyone has a different way to look at things.  I don't look at it this way, and I wouldn't encourage others, especially new collectors, to either.  Under the "don't yuk my yum" theory, I think I'll just say that chasing artwork that others want can be a interesting hobby, but too many new collectors chase what they think will go up in value.  When, in truth, most of them really want a piece of nostalgia and as Brian pointed out there's a lot out there at a reasonable cost if you're willing to put the time in.

I'm not suggesting that potential resale should be ignored. But, this graph appears to put that on the same level as what you like. Not everything is always going to go up.  But, most things don't go to zero either.  There is a lot of artwork from all ages out there and most of it won't break the bank.  

If your life will only be full of joy with a twice up Kirby cover, then you're going to spend some money.  But, if that's true, you don't really care what others want anyway.

Just a different perspective.

Ron

Edited June 6 by rsonenthal
typo

[Andahaion]

This observation is only cursory and may not mean anything, but I'm always intrigued by the number of trackers that comics and comic art lots receive.  This is really only in comparison to other things that I collect and may track at HA; things I pay attention to.  For instance, there's a signed first edition of The Hobbit with 126 trackers in the English and American Literature auction.  In the Japanese woodblock print auction, those lots are topping out at about 10 each.  And in this comic/OA auction, the highest tracked item is something I've no idea about; a Lee Elias Black Cat Comics #50 cover art with 475 trackers.  

Again, not sure that means anything, but when the question is posed about OA costing too much I tend to look at things like the above and can't deny that there is (or appears) to be a lot of demand and interest in this stuff and I would guess there's an impact on price.  But I'm just an internet post.

[Brian Peck]

On 6/6/2024 at 11:54 AM, Andahaion said:

This observation is only cursory and may not mean anything, but I'm always intrigued by the number of trackers that comics and comic art lots receive.  This is really only in comparison to other things that I collect and may track at HA; things I pay attention to.  For instance, there's a signed first edition of The Hobbit with 126 trackers in the English and American Literature auction.  In the Japanese woodblock print auction, those lots are topping out at about 10 each.  And in this comic/OA auction, the highest tracked item is something I've no idea about; a Lee Elias Black Cat Comics #50 cover art with 475 trackers.  

Again, not sure that means anything, but when the question is posed about OA costing too much I tend to look at things like the above and can't deny that there is (or appears) to be a lot of demand and interest in this stuff and I would guess there's an impact on price.  But I'm just an internet post.

Big difference between tracking and bidding. I like the tracking feature in HA and I use it alot. Much of the art I am not going to bid on in the auction.

I track a piece for a number of reasons, either I have a similar page and curious what the current market is but auctions are not always the best metrics. Other times I track because I like the page but not enough to add to my collection. Some pieces I am on the fence and may bid or may not. If the art goes low I might bid. Then there are the few I plan of definitely bidding.

[Andahaion]

On 6/6/2024 at 3:02 PM, Brian Peck said:

Big difference between tracking and bidding. I like the tracking feature in HA and I use it alot. Much of the art I am not going to bid on in the auction.

I track a piece for a number of reasons, either I have a similar page and curious what the current market is but auctions are not always the best metrics. Other times I track because I like the page but not enough to add to my collection. Some pieces I am on the fence and may bid or may not. If the art goes low I might bid. Then there are the few I plan of definitely bidding.

For sure.  It was just an observation that, like I said, likely doesn't mean anything other than the observation itself.  

[Xatari]

On 6/6/2024 at 9:14 PM, rsonenthal said:

I think everyone has a different way to look at things.  I don't look at it this way, and I wouldn't encourage others, especially new collectors, to either.  Under the "don't yuk my yum" theory, I think I'll just say that chasing artwork that others want can be a interesting hobby, but too many new collectors chase what they think will go up in value.  When, in truth, most of them really want a piece of nostalgia and as Brian pointed out there's a lot out there at a reasonable cost if you're willing to put the time in.

I'm not suggesting that potential resale should be ignored. But, this graph appears to put that on the same level as what you like. Not everything is always going to go up.  But, most things don't go to zero either.  There is a lot of artwork from all ages out there and most of it won't break the bank.  

If your life will only be full of joy with a twice up Kirby cover, then you're going to spend some money.  But, if that's true, you don't really care what others want anyway.

Just a different perspective.

Ron

Hey @rsonenthal there is definitely no right or wrong way. The image I posted is just conceptual and isn’t an accurate reflection of how I weight what I like and what I think will hold its value. If it was, the intersection would be tiny. 

The reason I like this concept and share with new collectors is because most people, myself included, like a wide variety of art. If someone were to enter the hobby and simply start buying everything they like, they would likely be broke in a very short time span. Moreover, when something of real nostalgia becomes available, they may no longer be in a position to obtain said piece given all funds have been depleted. 

The idea here is to create some flexibility and liquidity which only happens if you could sell a piece quickly and close to what you paid for it so you are not continually losing equity. I have seen new collectors go out and spend big money on a ton of commissions, recreations, or other sub genres in their newfound excitement only to be unable to get fifty cents on the dollar on these when they are trying to raise funds for a published piece that really connects with their nostalgic appetite. 

Did they love those pieces? Of course. Did others want those pieces? Not really. Hence, find that intersection of what you love and others will likely want down the road. Again, this is only my personal approach. I give this advice because it works for my and your mileage may vary. 

Edited June 6 by Xatari

[delekkerste]

So, I might be the guy who originated and first gave a name to the "Collect what you like, as long as others like it too" philosophy, probably a good 10-12 years ago at this point - I've even described it to people in the same Venn diagram terms over the years like in @Xatari's graphic above. 

When I came up with the concept, I meant it both half-jokingly and half-ruefully, as much of what I collected in the first ~9 years of collecting was illustration and niche comic art that I certainly liked, but which hugely underperformed the mainstream comic art I also enjoyed (but didn't buy nearly enough of at the time). I mean, my mentality back in, say, 2003-05 was "I like Byrne X-Men art and I like Jose Gonzalez Vampirella art and I can buy 1 page of the former or 8 pages of the latter for the same money so I'm going with the latter!"  

Of course, that Byrne art is now 15x the price and the Gonzalez Vampi art is now 2.5x and some of the illustration art I bought back in the day probably hasn't gone up much, if at all (re: opportunity cost) and I took some bruising hits when I eventually sold out of some of those early buys later on. So, with the benefit of hindsight, yeah, maybe I should have been thinking in Venn diagram terms 15-20 years ago (I just hadn't thought of it that way then). I also didn't take into account how my own artistic tastes and nostalgia (i.e., "what I like") would evolve over time.

I would say I started to focus more on the Venn diagram intersection from about 2012/13-onward, though, I've definitely continued to buy a lot of stuff just in the "What I Like" circle as well, especially in recent years where the intersecting material has become so pricey that the value proposition to me is much higher outside of the intersection. That said, it's because I've done so well on the many pieces I've bought that fit in the Venn diagram intersection that I feel like I have more leeway to indulge in so much off-piste material these days, playing with house money as it were (not that I sell much to buy, but more that I rationalize buying "fun" pieces because of the equity I've built up in the rest of my collection - I know other longtime collectors who have this mentality as well).

So, bottom line - I'm more mindful of what "the market" thinks of a piece nowadays vs. my collecting approach early on. And that's not a bad thing given that prices are multiples or even exponents higher in some cases since then. That said, I still let my eye and heart wander where they will and find loads of fun stuff in various corners of the market that aren't as well-traveled. But, everyone's mileage will vary.  

Edited June 7 by delekkerste

[tth2]

Wouldn't the best of all worlds be to buy stuff you like before it intersects with the "what others like" group (i.e., before the rest of the market catches on) and then have the "what others like" group intersect with yours?

[vodou]

Working up to a hoard of 1980s Marvel superhero art was easy 25 years ago, cheap too. Most collectors wanted EC and Big Two twice up. To succeed, at 80s hero, you just had to have dedication, determination to buy what made sense but which the market hadn't latched onto yet. You had to be okay buying, in size, what very few others wanted (and looked down on).

However, market access was in flux during those early years of eBay, there was no HA participation and Christie's and Sotheby's only did a single annual sale of mostly high end single pieces and large bulk lots. Bidding on those sales was a PITA and generally there wasn't any 80s in there anyway. eBay offered much opportunity but no pictures or of such poor quality it didn't matter and no...PayPal, credit card or electronic settlement at all. It was old school: check or money order and all the risk that goes along with that. It was a lot different then and I don't think that circumstance will repeat. The next 30 years will not replicate the outsized gains of the previous 30 years.

Finally, almost all the art that was hiding in closets and garages at original 80s cost basis has been up streamed to present fmv by actual sales or new hands that know exactly what they have and how to comp it. Very few ignorant widows and orphans with great comic art remain.

[-m]

On 6/7/2024 at 8:34 AM, vodou said:

Working up to a hoard of 1980s Marvel superhero art was easy 25 years ago, cheap too. Most collectors wanted EC and Big Two twice up. To succeed, at 80s hero, you just had to have dedication, determination to buy what made sense but which the market hadn't latched onto yet. You had to be okay buying, in size, what very few others wanted (and looked down on).

A great example of this is Iron Man art prior to the first [Marvel] movie. Very few people actually wanted it.

[LastRaven]

I collect what I like, but I think that delekkerste has it right. 

You can collect for example, 1 page of art you like or 10 pages of art you like. However, you just need to keep in mind that costs will go up. And the stuff that you like that's expensive now, will probably be more expensive in the future. 

However, I would caution against people buying art for the investment aspect. It's really nice to have it hold value and, eventually, sell it if you want something better, but that's not always going to be the case.  I have some art I bought for $400 "back in the day" that's easily worth 5x or more now, but it's not worth anything until I sell it. Likewise, I have stuff that I bought for $200 at HA last week that was commanding 3x or more directly from the artist himself. 

I think there's a bit of FOMO we all have. 

Edited June 7 by LastRaven

[Xatari]

Man, I love this hobby. Four years in, and still chipping away at pieces on my bucket list. Very cool to own any, and even better to own several. Regardless of values, truly awesome to steward pieces that have made such an impact on me!

[LastRaven]

On 6/7/2024 at 1:51 PM, Xatari said:

Man, I love this hobby. Four years in, and still chipping away at pieces on my bucket list. Very cool to own any, and even better to own several. Regardless of values, truly awesome to steward pieces that have made such an impact on me!

Tell me about it, lol. I'm looking for ONE comic page that has Sixshot (from Transformers) in it, and have yet to find one for sale after 10+ years, lol. 

[vodou]

On 6/7/2024 at 3:28 PM, LastRaven said:

Tell me about it, lol. I'm looking for ONE comic page that has Sixshot (from Transformers) in it, and have yet to find one for sale after 10+ years, lol. 

What's the population, pages with that character, many?

[LastRaven]

On 6/7/2024 at 3:30 PM, vodou said:

What's the population, pages with that character, many?

Hard to say for modern stuff because I'm never quite sure how much was just computer drawn. He had a full comic issue dedicated to him (Spotlight: Sixshot), but I believe the artist is fully digital. Always made some cameos here and there in various series, but nothing ever to be a very notable panel (which makes it a bit difficult to identify sometimes because he looks like a background guy / usually is one).

However, for the original Marvel series, there are like 2 issues where he appears. So, it's a bit of a white whale. 

[Nate Hartz]

I entered this hobby in the late 90's early 2000's as a fan that had no idea any of this existed or purchased for that matter. I lived in a small town in the Midwest and when I found Ebay it became my main source of art. I only attended one convention every couple of years and would grab some sketches or, if I saved enough, a page from one of the artists or a friendly art dealer that took time to explain things to me. Sure prices were high for some stuff but I didn't have want/funds/need to have the older artists' pages. I think for the most part, original comic book art started out as a niche market that's slowly growing into higher demand, but doesn't have more supply. Each page is one of a kind(1 of 1) and some will never leave the collector's portfolios in my lifetime. When any collectible market meets, in-between this "Sweet spot", it always is a recipe for opportunity/money. Are the prices out of control? That's subjective but the market will adjust until it can't. People are currently willing to pay high prices for art and will remain until the desire or want disappears. It was like this for Kirby, Buscema, EC artists, Byrne, whatever in demand artists, etc. until the supply dries up. I am just glad I was/am able to own some art from my favorite artists and that for me is enough. 

 

[1classics]

On 6/7/2024 at 10:51 AM, Xatari said:

Man, I love this hobby. Four years in, and still chipping away at pieces on my bucket list. Very cool to own any, and even better to own several. Regardless of values, truly awesome to steward pieces that have made such an impact on me!

Well said, I’m right there with you Xatari!
 

Still a fun hobby regardless of what they’re worth today and though it may seem like more money today than pre-pandemic prices, I still believe prices will rise for the right pieces / artists / arcs etc over time. 

[Xatari]

I agree. I am much more critical of my buying and went into the year thinking, “This may be the year I sit on the sidelines”. Ended up already grabbing half a dozen big pieces from my running list of character to own. 😂 

[All-Star Squadman]

On 6/7/2024 at 11:56 AM, -m said:

A great example of this is Iron Man art prior to the first [Marvel] movie. Very few people actually wanted it.

I've now been in the hobby 1/4 Century - man it goes fast....

Yep, The 2008 film did cause the art to sublimate, however before then from 1999-2007,  60s and 70s Iron Man art had solid demand. On the average 1970's published IM art prices prior to the movie were higher than Cap or Thor and similar to the Avengers. I won and lost many a wallet bruising scuffle for Romita Jr/Layton Iron Man art for several years prior to the film. 

Edited June 8 by All-Star Squadman

[Readcomix]

On 6/8/2024 at 4:14 AM, Xatari said:

I agree. I am much more critical of my buying and went into the year thinking, “This may be the year I sit on the sidelines”. Ended up already grabbing half a dozen big pieces from my running list of character to own. 😂 

Relaaaax, you’re good. You did it from the sidelines, so it doesn’t count. 

That logic always works for me….

[Readcomix]

On 6/8/2024 at 11:39 AM, All-Star Squadman said:

I've now been in the hobby 1/4 Century - man it goes fast....

Yep, The 2008 film did cause the art to sublimate, however before then from 1999-2007,  60s and 70s Iron Man art had solid demand. On the average 1970's published IM art prices prior to the movie were higher than Cap or Thor and similar to the Avengers. I won and lost many a wallet bruising scuffle for Romita Jr/Layton Iron Man art for several years prior to the film. 

I don’t notice it come up much. I have one page, from the first issue JRJR drew, that I got directly from Dan Green in the 80’s. It’s not going anywhere. Layton came on board the next issue. It’s one of the best reading runs of that era but it never got the love X-Men or DD got. But it wasn’t a total overhaul so much as a natural evolution of the character, so it did not have that “something new is happening” buzz about it.