Are OA prices out of control? 7 7

[Michael Browning]

On 6/17/2024 at 8:31 PM, Terry E. Gibbs said:

The Flash splash to 153 last September had been one of yours ??  Was that you, or how long ago had you sold it.

Not mine at all. Not sure why you’d think that.

[exitmusicblue]

On 6/17/2024 at 11:59 PM, Nexus said:

Sigh. I had a feeling there would be a conspiracy theory around this. Not surprised at all, though, that it's coming from Xatari.

For those who don't know: I was at Heroescon this past weekend with a few artists. Including Daniel Warren Johnson. Dan did a live painting demo on Saturday, and donated the piece to the auction taking place that night. All proceeds to benefit the show.

Before the auction, we all went out to dinner. While we were waiting to be served, I posted a pic of the art to socials to help promote the auction:

https://www.instagram.com/p/C8QP1PyPZRI/

Albert Moy saw my post and texted our mutual friend Lambert to bid on his behalf. At no point before, during, or after the auction did I talk/text with Albert. For that matter, at no point before or during the auction did I reach out to any potential bidders. My preference for any sale, public or private, is to let things play out organically. Which they did here.

Albert ended up winning the piece at auction for $11K. All his communication with Lambert was via text, and that would back up everything here. Everything having to do with his bidding was between him and Lambert. I wasn't even with Lambert during the bidding. I had sought out Dan and we watched it all go down in the back of the room. Neither one of us was expecting this number. I consider myself Dan's longest fan/collector/champion, and *I* wouldn't pay that number.

Does this sale help Dan's market? I suppose it doesn't hurt, but not really otherwise. His art values are fairly well established already. But let's say it flopped and sold for $100. At this point, that would also have had zero impact. I guarantee you the next art drop for Dan will be just fine, regardless of how one piece did at a show auction. High or low.

As it turned out, Albert's max bid was a LOT HIGHER than $11K. If I cared, then this should have been juiced to an even more ridiculous number. All the underbidders were in the room. Ask any of them if I approached them to talk about this piece or this auction before or during the bidding. They all bid what they wanted to bid with no influence from me.

I've been selling art on behalf artists for 10+ years now. We've gotten where we are with no games or shenanigans. I'm happy to let the market decide. When pieces come back up for sale/auction, I don't bid to "protect values". I don't ask anyone to do that on my behalf, either. I try to keep tabs on resale values, but my chief concern is keeping interest high in the artists and their art. Everything else will take care of itself.

I was a collector long before I became a rep. My posting history here goes back nearly 20 years. I've never been a fan of the speculators/gamblers/flippers who become interested in comic art for its "investment potential" above all else. That didn't change when I became a rep. Those who enter the hobby from speculating in rookie sports cards and apply that view to first appearance comic art, for example, are gamblers. They're not collectors. They might try to convince everyone else otherwise, but I'm not buying it. I'm not at all shocked that they have become my saltiest critics and detractors. My posting history will also show that I've never been shy about speaking up. Will continue to do so.

16 positive emojis and counting with good reason, just added mine.  I'm hardly on here any more but come when the popcorn's hot.

I'll say a few things.  Disparaging someone's alleged un-professionalness absent hard evidence of such is little more than an overly emotional ad hominem attack.  Keep it up, @cbaileypacker... or better yet, spare us.

Btw, we're well past the "not mention by name" pseudo-courtesy being effectual.  The nudge-nudge-hints are obvious even to someone barely present like me.  If you don't want to (re)light a blaze, stop providing kindling.

Finally, there are main characters in this thread (and our hobby), all of whom inevitably are surrounded by noise.  I'd take Felix's noise vs. the rest any day of the week.  Fortunately I don't have to, hah!

 

[Michael Browning]

On 6/18/2024 at 8:21 AM, Bronty said:

That’s a fair answer, but it does show that your POV (and word choices!) are buyer-centric.    I know sellers can be annoying, trust me.   But believe me when I say that buyers can be every bit as annoying.    
 

At the end of the day, to bring it back to the discussion of scribbles and roughs for that $300 price point, what would you do if you had a booth at a con, and somebody walked up to you and said “I have $300 and I like artist X… what work of theirs can you sell me ?”    Would you offer the rough, or tell them they can’t afford to participate in the market for that artist?   
 

Point being…. “Dealers” are just people like you  and I, for the most part.     They don’t hatch nefarious plans (for the most part) or stay up late at night thinking about ploys to steal $300 (for the most part).    They aren’t really any better or worse than the people across the table. 

Funny that you’re telling me this and getting “likes” because I’m usually the guy taking the side of the dealer - because I understand their situation - and get nothing but hate.

I totally get what you’re saying and I don’t think it’s a nefarious plan to burn anyone at all but it is the new normal for the dealers in this hobby since auctions have turned the dealers’ business plans totally upside down.

[Nexus]

On 6/18/2024 at 11:55 AM, Xatari said:

@CGC Mike because this thread is about OA prices being out of control, I believe it is important for members to be able to see the mentality of those setting these prices. In this case, Felix is a dealer who is setting prices on niche art of a collecting subset (first appearance collectors) then bashing them on a public forum. He has stated he is teaching these “gamblers” a lesson. This has a direct impact on why OA prices are high land is worthy of discussion.  

Yes, @CGC Mike please leave all of this up. I am in complete agreement with Xatari/Michael Hansen on that. Everything else, not so much. Saying that "I stated I am teaching gamblers a lesson", for example, is a total lie. So always appreciate the chance to set the record straight. Also prefer everyone have a chance to read all sides and form their own opinions.

In terms of pricing, there's also discussion of "scribbles and roughs" in this thread. While I understand that the big ticket items I've sold will garner the most attention/discussion, it should be noted that I also sell prelims/studies/roughs for anywhere from $20-$100. I've probably sold more of this type of art at these prices than anyone. From across our roster, including from such well-established and renowned names as Paul Pope, Yuko Shimizu, Stuart Immonen...and yes, even Daniel Warren Johnson. It's all viewable in CAF's Market Data page.

In a vacuum, is selling a small piece of art for $20 or $40 worth anyone's time? I suspect that's why you never saw much art available at these prices before from dealers/reps. I started doing it because, believe it or not, it's not simply about getting as much as I can for an artist on an individual piece. Small pieces are fun and anyone can afford them. They're a great introduction to original art. I'm seeing more reps do this now, too. I'm going to be offering a large 50+ piece selection of published art from one of the biggest names out there soon...all for $100 or less. It's not going to inspire any click-baity threads here, but those who follow what I do have a better idea of the bigger picture.

[Michael Browning]

On 6/18/2024 at 8:21 AM, Bronty said:

That’s a fair answer, but it does show that your POV (and word choices!) are buyer-centric.    I know sellers can be annoying, trust me.   But believe me when I say that buyers can be every bit as annoying.    
 

At the end of the day, to bring it back to the discussion of scribbles and roughs for that $300 price point, what would you do if you had a booth at a con, and somebody walked up to you and said “I have $300 and I like artist X… what work of theirs can you sell me ?”    Would you offer the rough, or tell them they can’t afford to participate in the market for that artist?   
 

Point being…. “Dealers” are just people like you  and I, for the most part.     They don’t hatch nefarious plans (for the most part) or stay up late at night thinking about ploys to steal $300 (for the most part).    They aren’t really any better or worse than the people across the table. 

I want to make one note, though, that as much as I will defend them and while not “nefarious”, dealers do have their network and they consign art to each other and send it to each others’ websites with a markup or a mark down and it makes the rounds to make it look like it sold before it heads back to Daddy Dealer’s stash. You can see it nearly every week if you watch the updates closely enough.

Edited June 18 by Michael Browning

[Michael Browning]

On 6/18/2024 at 12:06 PM, Bronty said:

And dealers have endless stories about azzhole buyers.... it ain't a one way street.

Which dealer are you working for? Because, man, you’re fierce and steadfast in your defense of them. Someone struck and nerve with the Godfather and sent you out to take care of business for the family. 😃😉

Edited June 18 by Michael Browning

[Latverian Tourism Board]

[artdealer]

On 6/18/2024 at 2:34 PM, Nexus said:

I see. So since I'm a "professional", I'm supposed to allow any and all slander/innuendo against me to go unchallenged?

That’s the perceived notion.

Being a professional does not allow for rebuttal. At least this is what I was told.

[jaykza]

On 6/18/2024 at 10:49 AM, dinesh_s said:

First, I was there, this is not what happened.

Second, Whatever the narrative, you should know better than to bid on pieces from artists you represent. It's a bad look in any circumstance and erodes customer trust. 

Ah. The guy that's been publicly called out by multiple collectors for committing to buy art and then disappearing like a fart in the wind shows up to teach a lesson in etiquette.

I wasn't there but the reputation of Felix vs. Don Sh1tpool is no contest. Your word is as good as the toilet paper used to wipe that wet fart and I can assume the opposite of what is written above. 

 

Edited June 18 by jaykza

[Unstoppablejayd]

So 8 pages in- have we decided if oa prices are out of control??? I was hoping this would be settled before the HA auction….

[Pedro Cruz]

On 6/18/2024 at 2:59 AM, Nexus said:

Sigh. I had a feeling there would be a conspiracy theory around this. Not surprised at all, though, that it's coming from Xatari.

For those who don't know: I was at Heroescon this past weekend with a few artists. Including Daniel Warren Johnson. Dan did a live painting demo on Saturday, and donated the piece to the auction taking place that night. All proceeds to benefit the show.

Before the auction, we all went out to dinner. While we were waiting to be served, I posted a pic of the art to socials to help promote the auction:

https://www.instagram.com/p/C8QP1PyPZRI/

Albert Moy saw my post and texted our mutual friend Lambert to bid on his behalf. At no point before, during, or after the auction did I talk/text with Albert. For that matter, at no point before or during the auction did I reach out to any potential bidders. My preference for any sale, public or private, is to let things play out organically. Which they did here.

Albert ended up winning the piece at auction for $11K. All his communication with Lambert was via text, and that would back up everything here. Everything having to do with his bidding was between him and Lambert. I wasn't even with Lambert during the bidding. I had sought out Dan and we watched it all go down in the back of the room. Neither one of us was expecting this number. I consider myself Dan's longest fan/collector/champion, and *I* wouldn't pay that number.

Does this sale help Dan's market? I suppose it doesn't hurt, but not really otherwise. His art values are fairly well established already. But let's say it flopped and sold for $100. At this point, that would also have had zero impact. I guarantee you the next art drop for Dan will be just fine, regardless of how one piece did at a show auction. High or low.

As it turned out, Albert's max bid was a LOT HIGHER than $11K. If I cared, then this should have been juiced to an even more ridiculous number. All the underbidders were in the room. Ask any of them if I approached them to talk about this piece or this auction before or during the bidding. They all bid what they wanted to bid with no influence from me.

I've been selling art on behalf artists for 10+ years now. We've gotten where we are with no games or shenanigans. I'm happy to let the market decide. When pieces come back up for sale/auction, I don't bid to "protect values". I don't ask anyone to do that on my behalf, either. I try to keep tabs on resale values, but my chief concern is keeping interest high in the artists and their art. Everything else will take care of itself.

I was a collector long before I became a rep. My posting history here goes back nearly 20 years. I've never been a fan of the speculators/gamblers/flippers who become interested in comic art for its "investment potential" above all else. That didn't change when I became a rep. Those who enter the hobby from speculating in rookie sports cards and apply that view to first appearance comic art, for example, are gamblers. They're not collectors. They might try to convince everyone else otherwise, but I'm not buying it. I'm not at all shocked that they have become my saltiest critics and detractors. My posting history will also show that I've never been shy about speaking up. Will continue to do so.

I was there.  This sounds like a lot of excuses.   Someone even came down the aisle and told the under bidder “I’m told to tell you that if you bid $14k you will win it”.  Really? That doesn’t sound like a legit bid system.  
 

Shenanigans and BS justification IMO. 🙄😵‍💫🤣😎😇
 

[Nexus]

On 6/18/2024 at 3:29 PM, Pedro Cruz said:

I was there.  This sounds like a lot of excuses.   Someone even came down the aisle and told the under bidder “I’m told to tell you that if you bid $14k you will win it”.  Really? That doesn’t sound like a legit bid system.  
 

Shenanigans and BS justification IMO. 🙄😵‍💫🤣😎😇
 

Interesting. Who was this "someone" who came down the aisle and said $14K would win it? That didn't come from me and also, $14K wouldn't have done it. So this is total fantasy.

[exitmusicblue]

On 6/18/2024 at 3:29 PM, Pedro Cruz said:

I was there.  This sounds like a lot of excuses.   Someone even came down the aisle and told the under bidder “I’m told to tell you that if you bid $14k you will win it”.  Really? That doesn’t sound like a legit bid system.  
 

Shenanigans and BS justification IMO. 🙄😵‍💫🤣😎😇
 

Hardpressed to think someone from Felix's team could be so flagrantly stupid.   "Someone"... "I'm told"... try again if you want to be a legit member of the hot popcorn club.

[MyNameIsLegion]

Are we overlooking the fact that at a charity auction the entire point is to nudge up the price? To cajole, dare, collude, pool, whatever it takes to keep the bidding up? All other side motives, real or perceived are irrelevant. If the birther contingent were more upset they didn’t win whatever the hell it was for their perceived FMV so they can invest, flip, hype or whatever seem to have given themselves away as Felix correctly stated. It’s about the money, not the art, much less the charitable cause. This is not a good look for you guys in the art community as you so often like to say in PMs when you think someone spoke out of line.  

[dinesh_s]

[Nexus]

On 6/18/2024 at 4:00 PM, exitmusicblue said:

Hardpressed to think someone from Felix's team could be so flagrantly stupid.   "Someone"... "I'm told"... try again if you want to be a legit member of the hot popcorn club.

Again, if this was all staged and I juiced the bidding, it would have finished a lot higher than $11K.

And again, we neither gain nor lose with whatever this piece sold for. I got asked a lot by people in the room what I thought the piece was worth. Ask any of them if I told them what to bid. Ask any of them if I even encouraged them to bid. Good luck.

We've been doing Heroes for years. We always donate art from our artists. Nobody says anything about any of those other pieces that has sold over the years. Were they all manipulated? Dan's art was placed in Sunday last year and sold for a pittance btw. What effect did that have on his market? Is this something the conspiracy theorists believe I'm worried about?

[Nexus]

On 6/18/2024 at 4:06 PM, dinesh_s said:

OK, so what am I lying about? You said "that's not what happened". But you won't say what you believe did happen. Still waiting.

[exitmusicblue]

On 6/18/2024 at 4:05 PM, MyNameIsLegion said:

Are we overlooking the fact that at a charity auction the entire point is to nudge up the price? To cajole, dare, collude, pool, whatever it takes to keep the bidding up? All other side motives, real or perceived are irrelevant. If the birther contingent were more upset they didn’t win whatever the hell it was for their perceived FMV so they can invest, flip, hype or whatever seem to have given themselves away as Felix correctly stated. It’s about the money, not the art, much less the charitable cause. This is not a good look for you guys in the art community as you so often like to say in PMs when you think someone spoke out of line.  

And charity auction or not, there's a difference between team member cajoling vs. anyone else cajoling.

If the latter case was what happened, then whatever the motive (buzzed sense of self-importance?  Charity? Only that person knows), presuming responsibility/agency without evidence is, as you say, not a good look.  

 

[Pedro Cruz]

On 6/18/2024 at 7:15 PM, Nexus said:

Again, if this was all staged and I juiced the bidding, it would have finished a lot higher than $11K.

And again, we neither gain nor lose with whatever this piece sold for. I got asked a lot by people in the room what I thought the piece was worth. Ask any of them if I told them what to bid. Ask any of them if I even encouraged them to bid. Good luck.

We've been doing Heroes for years. We always donate art from our artists. Nobody says anything about any of those other pieces that has sold over the years. Were they all manipulated? Dan's art was placed in Sunday last year and sold for a pittance btw. What effect did that have on his market? Is this something the conspiracy theorists believe I'm worried about?

What is hilarious to me is that no one called you out.  Yet, you felt you had to add all this justifications for your actions.   BTW, I saw you walk to the underbidder and heard your BS answer.  Also you were standing right next to the winner the whole time.  
 

If the shoe Fits!!! 

Edited June 18 by Pedro Cruz

[Nexus]

On 6/18/2024 at 4:38 PM, Pedro Cruz said:

What is gelatinous to me is that no one called you out.  Yet, you felt you had to add all this justifications for your actions.   BTW, I saw you walk to the underbidder and heard your BS answer and you were standing right next to the winner the whole time.  
 

If the shoe Fits!!! 

OK, there were other people in the room, including the underbidder, who can refute all of this. The underbidder came to me to talk about the piece and ask me what I thought it was worth. I did not engage with him otherwise. Also, I was not standing next to the winner the whole time. I was with Dan to watch the bidding from the back of the room. I wasn't even in the room until then, I had to go find Dan.

You're either a liar or delusional. Pick YOUR shoe.