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Bidding on your own auction
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Started by BlackOut21,

177 posts in this topic

shadroch

shadroch

Posted
Posted
On 6/26/2024 at 6:49 PM, masterlogan2000 said:

 

I have major concerns with this.

1)  How do you know that your bid of $70 will be the top?  What if you are outbid, and you are the 2nd highest bidder?  You have now shilled the bid up and cost the legitimate buyer an extra $20 + the next bid increment.

The $70 acts as my reserve.  I'd rather pay the auction house it's ten percent commission than sell for less.

On 6/26/2024 at 6:49 PM, masterlogan2000 said:

2)  If you put in an absurd bid to ensure you win the auction, and another buyer comes in at the last second and places an equally absurd bid to add the item to their collection, they either pay waaayyy more for the item, or you win it outright for a price that it should have never reached.

If a person wishes to buy his own books at ridiculous prices, why not?

On 6/26/2024 at 6:49 PM, masterlogan2000 said:

 

Are the results of these auctions public knowledge?  Your shill bidding changes the hammer price in both of your examples above.  What is to stop someone from continuously winning and relisting their item to make it appear that an item is worth more and has more liquidity than what the actual market will support?

Sure, you are paying the auction house to use their platform to manipulate a free market, but that doesn't make it right.  If you are concerned about not meeting your minimum, then next time choose a platform that does allow for setting minimums and reserves.

IMO, shill bidding is HIGHLY unethical.

 

How many of my Daffy Khaddafy 1s do I need to buy at absurd prices to begin to manipulate the market for them?    

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shadroch

shadroch

Posted
Posted
On 6/26/2024 at 7:17 PM, stock_rotation said:

Google "Heritage auctions NP Gresham"

https://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/steve_duin/2009/09/lifting_the_veil_at_heritage_a.html

Has the case progressed in the fifteen years since those allegations were made? I've seen that article referenced several times, but no follow up.

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MAR1979

MAR1979

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 6/26/2024 at 8:18 PM, BlackOut21 said:

So, super random but is bidding on your own auction really that bad ?

I know you can easily say start the auction higher. No answer to it.

But if a person really wanted to bid in the middle of an auction, especially a person who is always buying and selling, should it be considered bad business practice?

No judgement please, but curious what you think. 

Sadly its BAU

Edited by MAR1979
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BlackOut21

BlackOut21

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  • Author
Posted

Perhaps regardless of intent increasing the price during an auction can seem a bit unethical.

Still not convinced though. I can’t see much of a difference between starting an auction with a reserve and deciding what you want your reserve to be during the auction. 
 

Doesn’t seem like shill bidding to me. 

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wombat

wombat

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On 6/26/2024 at 11:50 PM, BlackOut21 said:

Perhaps regardless of intent increasing the price during an auction can seem a bit unethical.

Still not convinced though. I can’t see much of a difference between starting an auction with a reserve and deciding what you want your reserve to be during the auction. 
 

Doesn’t seem like shill bidding to me. 

Deciding what you want your reserve to be during the auction? Good lord. That is some mental gymnastics to justify shill bidding. 

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MAR1979

MAR1979

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 6/26/2024 at 11:52 PM, wombat said:

Deciding what you want your reserve to be during the auction? Good lord. That is some mental gymnastics to justify shill bidding. 

I'd expect no less from Comic Dealers and Sellers who on-the-whole have succeeded at being more dishonest than politicians.

Edited by MAR1979
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masterlogan2000

masterlogan2000

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Posted
On 6/26/2024 at 9:50 PM, shadroch said:

The $70 acts as my reserve.  I'd rather pay the auction house it's ten percent commission than sell for less.

If a person wishes to buy his own books at ridiculous prices, why not?

How many of my Daffy Khaddafy 1s do I need to buy at absurd prices to begin to manipulate the market for them?    

Just one.

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Tony S

Tony S

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Posted (edited)

I believe this issue of shill bidders and legality and morality has nuances to it.  Legally - in at least some states (and for sure the ones auction houses - like Heritage) locate in it appears to be based both on intent and on what has been disclosed. 

Shills only seek to drive up the price. They do not want to win any of the items they bid on. This looks to be illegal everywhere. Including say Texas, where Heritage is located. 

But if it is stated in the terms of the auction house or listing or event that "the owner, consignor, or agent thereof has reserved the right to bid" - well there you have it.  And Heritage (the only auction house I've looked over all the fine print in the agreement) says just that. Consignors can bid on their own lots. It's a minimum bid if done in writing before the live auction (and they maybe pay a reduced fee if the win their own lot) and if done during the live auction and they win they pay the full fee. Heritage also clearly states that "From time to time, the Auctioneer, its affiliates, or their employees may place bids on lots in the Auction." Auctioneer, affiliates and employees. That pretty much covers everyone, right? 

So... IMHO, shilling is wrong. Put it in an auction - get what it sells for is honest. But on the other hand  - WHY do only the big auction houses get to shill and it's OK?  Shill Legally and doesn't seem to affect their reputation or business. 

My question above is a bit rhetorical. I've answered already. It is very nuanced.  They have told you - if you read all the fine print - they might have associates or the auctioneer or employees of the company bid.   They have told you the possibility exists the consignor might bid in some fashion - creating a hidden reserve.  If one was to list  books on eBay and say all this in the description it would be legal (though eBay still might shut the listing down because legal or not it violates their listing policy) But even if eBay didn't take down the listing anyone reading the description would be much less likely to bid. 


Heritages listing agreement. https://www.ha.com/c/ref/terms-and-c....zx?view=terms


 

Edited by Tony S
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unclezebo

unclezebo

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Posted

There is only one instance I think "shill" bidding could be kind of ethical, I added the "'s cause it might be technically shilling. I've only ran across this a hand full of times at estate auctions. When the last parent dies instead of little Billy getting X, Bobby getting Y and Suzy getting Z, the WHOLE estate goes up for auction, and the siblings split the proceeds. So in the literal term if the siblings are bidding it could be shilling, but I get it. Also the stuff I've seen family members go crazy bidding on at auctions like these is kind of heart warming. I saw an old garage roller creeper that went for around 300-350 cause the father liked to work on cars with his kids and they all wanted it.

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shadroch

shadroch

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Posted

I suspect some of the major houses do, and if you read the rules on proxibids, the auction house reserves the right to bid for itself or consignees. I mostly sell through MCS, which does not allow you to bid on your own books.   The auction houses I use in Vegas and Arizona do allow it, and I think it would be silly not to use it to protect your investment.   I don't see that as shill bidding. 

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