I think Comic book shows are broken 2 2

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 8/27/2024 at 3:52 PM, batman_fan said:

I love comic book shows.  My favorite thing to do is go to a dead booth and start digging through the boxes and start to build a big pile.  Within a few minutes 10+ people will come running over to see what they are missing out on.  Good times, good times.

I had a friend in high school who used to do something similar* at the comic shop he worked at. He'd wait until a known speculator walked in (this was the 1990s) and then say to a co-worker "Oh! I didn't realize the new issue of [random '90s drek] was out."

*indirectly making people want something they didn't and wouldn't want

[Bookery]

On 8/26/2024 at 9:56 PM, MAY1979 said:

Agreed. However, in 2024 why would someone with knowledge of the hobby, who's not in the throes of withdrawal and needs a quick fix, ever sell to a dealer? 

I dunno...

maybe because of the myriad ways one can sell items, it's probably one of the safest and most dependable? *

 

 

* (like everything, one most do research of course... but few will bother to do it).

[Stefan_W]

On 9/2/2024 at 9:06 AM, Bookery said:

I dunno...

maybe because of the myriad ways one can sell items, it's probably one of the safest and most dependable? *

 

 

* (like everything, one most do research of course... but few will bother to do it).

I would add that it really depends on who you run across. People should be able to do better selling to a dealer than taking their books into a comic store, but some dealers are pretty shady and I can't say that rule applies across the board. In any event those looking to sell their entire collection at once should expect to take a bit of a haircut for the ease of doing it as a single sale. 

[VintageComics]

On 8/26/2024 at 6:21 PM, alexgross.com said:

what bugs me most is that when one tries to sell to dealers, which i have done, they use gpa all day long, and offer you something between 60-75% depending on various things. 

but when you are buying from them, gpa conveniently goes out the window unless there's been an outlier record sale. 

the few dealers who dont play this nonsense game are the very few that i deal with anymore. 

Slimy people and liars are found everywhere, not just in comics. 

The entire opium epidemic largely was caused because of slimy people that were trusted, in high places of power. 

I love cornering slimy people and putting pressure on them, exposing them. It gives me great pleasure. 

On 8/26/2024 at 9:48 PM, Math Teacher said:

I understand dealers have overhead and other expenses of which I am probably unaware. However, except for keys, you're lucky if you get 25¢ on the dollar when you sell a book. When you come back a week later, the same book is available for sale at 25% above GPA.

For junk, maybe, but there are some GREAT dealers out there that pay well for quality material and are straight shooters. 

It's very hard to sell in a falling market after a peak like 2021, and in a case like the last couple of years, where it was obviously a correcting market, dealers needed take on the risk and so will estimate on the lower end of the spectrum.

I've had great dealings and can't say enough about the Reece brothers, MyComicShop and a few others. Totally professional, pay well and straight shooters in every way. 

On 8/26/2024 at 9:56 PM, MAY1979 said:

Agreed. However, in 2024 why would someone with knowledge of the hobby, who's not in the throes of withdrawal and needs a quick fix, ever sell to a dealer? Consign sure, sell nopes!

Because there is value in not having to deal with risk, shopping items around, wasted time or effort dealing with difficult people, payment systems, shipping and returns. 

There's more to it than just dollars.

Edited September 2 by VintageComics

[Bookery]

On 9/2/2024 at 11:00 AM, Stefan_W said:

I would add that it really depends on who you run across. People should be able to do better selling to a dealer than taking their books into a comic store, but some dealers are pretty shady and I can't say that rule applies across the board. In any event those looking to sell their entire collection at once should expect to take a bit of a haircut for the ease of doing it as a single sale. 

I don't do shows, so I am one of those comic store dealers.  But I'm a little different in that I no longer carry new releases... purely specialize in vintage material.

But the reason I say selling to a dealer is safer is fairly obvious.  The caveat is, of course, you don't just walk in and sell willy-nilly to any dealer... you go to the ones with dependable reputations, strong cash flow, and are in position to take returns if an unseen issue arises.  But you have to do due diligence in any aspect of life.  With a dealer you get the money up front... you make the decision on whether the price is right or not.  As to dealers paying less than other forums, if you're material is decent, that's simply not the case.  I'll match what you can net at Heritage on most major items with established track records.  I think if a local shop can pay the same as the world's largest pop culture auction house, that's a pretty good deal in my book.  Plus... I pay now, not weeks or months down the road when the auction actually takes place.

Auction houses and eBay are also to various degrees crapshoots.  You might get a record price on a given day, or you may take a significant hit.  Did your Spider-Man #1 end up appearing in an auction with 4 other copies?  With eBay, you may get around 80% after fees, but eBay tends to be a market for bargain hunters... and the risk of fraud or hassle (returns) is not insignificant.  You can meet up on Craig's List or other such in-person arrangements, but obviously, there are inherent risks there too.  Dealers aren't the only option, and I've said before that different forums are right for different types of collections.  But to rule dealers out, out-of-hand, just isn't good business.

Sellers also have to take responsibility.  Recent true story: a customer brought in several SA slabs, mid-grade, no keys.  He said he'd already sold the key stuff on Heritage.  Fine.  I offered him 70% on his books and he turned me down.  He said he got 80% selling on Heritage.  I asked "even after the buyer's fees?".  Well, he admitted, sure there were buyer's fees... but after that he got 80%.  So in other words, he sold keys for 67% of net retail, but turned down 70% net for non-keys.  And I'm not even including his shipping and insurance costs.  Rule #1:  if you want to be a "player" buying and selling comics... first have a solid grasp of math.

[Stefan_W]

On 9/2/2024 at 11:44 AM, VintageComics said:

It's very hard to sell in a falling market after a peak like 2021, and in a case like the last couple of years, where it was obviously a correcting market, dealers needed take on the risk and so will estimate on the lower end of the spectrum.

 

This brings several negotiations I had recently to mind. In one negotiation the person came to me in the spring of 2022 and I made an offer they turned down. No biggy, it happens. But then they came to me again a few weeks ago and when they asked if I could go a bit higher than my original offer I had to explain that the books are worth half what they were a couple of years ago. I declined making another offer since I did not see a point to it. 

During negotiations for a collection I bought last week the person was doing his best to maximize the price, which is all good. On my end I did bring up that if it was a couple of years ago I would have gladly taken that price but the market has shifted downwards. It was the truth and not just a negotiation tactic. Anyone looking for 2021-22 pricing now is wasting time since they will end up keeping their books anyway. 

[Bookery]

On 9/2/2024 at 1:46 PM, Stefan_W said:

This brings several negotiations I had recently to mind. In one negotiation the person came to me in the spring of 2022 and I made an offer they turned down. No biggy, it happens. But then they came to me again a few weeks ago and when they asked if I could go a bit higher than my original offer I had to explain that the books are worth half what they were a couple of years ago. I declined making another offer since I did not see a point to it. 

During negotiations for a collection I bought last week the person was doing his best to maximize the price, which is all good. On my end I did bring up that if it was a couple of years ago I would have gladly taken that price but the market has shifted downwards. It was the truth and not just a negotiation tactic. Anyone looking for 2021-22 pricing now is wasting time since they will end up keeping their books anyway. 

Yes.  And this makes buying collections very difficult right now.  A lot of collectors have not kept up with market trends, and automatically assume you're just lying to them.  Previously, I would say I got 80% of the collections I made offers on.  It's probably down to 50% right now... and most of those come from regular customers who do know the market.

[Chip Cataldo]

On 9/2/2024 at 1:29 PM, Bookery said:

...if you want to be a "player" buying and selling comics... first have a solid grasp of math.

As far selling collectibles in general it's all knowledge, numbers and customer service.

That's it. Master those three and you'll kick-azz all over the place.

Edited September 2 by Chip Cataldo

[Stefan_W]

On 9/2/2024 at 1:51 PM, Bookery said:

Yes.  And this makes buying collections very difficult right now.  A lot of collectors have not kept up with market trends, and automatically assume you're just lying to them.  Previously, I would say I got 80% of the collections I made offers on.  It's probably down to 50% right now... and most of those come from regular customers who do know the market.

Sometimes people try their best to be informed and end up in the wrong direction. For example, aps like CLZ can totally misrepresent the value of bulk non-key comics. I have many stories of people who put thousands of 2-3 dollar books into those aps and figured their collection was worth five k, ten k, or more when I was looking through and figuring out a bulk price per long box that made sense. When you are apart in value by 1000% or more something has gone horribly wrong, and I am pretty sure my numbers are the realistic ones. 

[Chip Cataldo]

On 9/2/2024 at 2:03 PM, Stefan_W said:

Sometimes people try their best to be informed and end up in the wrong direction. For example, aps like CLZ can totally misrepresent the value of bulk non-key comics. I have many stories of people who put thousands of 2-3 dollar books into those aps and figured their collection was worth five k, ten k, or more when I was looking through and figuring out a bulk price per long box that made sense. When you are apart in value by 1000% or more something has gone horribly wrong, and I am pretty sure my numbers are the realistic ones. 

There's a guy locally who keeps putting up an Infinity Gauntlet #2 (raw, of course) for $75.

A simple eBay search would tell them otherwise, but the reality is that the word "eBay" doesn't even exist in some people's minds.

[VintageComics]

On 9/2/2024 at 1:29 PM, Bookery said:

I don't do shows, so I am one of those comic store dealers.  But I'm a little different in that I no longer carry new releases... purely specialize in vintage material.

This is not an uncommon trend. I know a few local stores that have dropped new books and simply specialize in vintage material now. 

The constant headaches from Diamond, and the pandemic sealed the deal for many stores.

How long has it been since you no longer carry new releases?

[VintageComics]

On 9/2/2024 at 1:29 PM, Bookery said:

Sellers also have to take responsibility.

We'll need an entire forum for this topic. 

[Math Teacher]

On 9/2/2024 at 12:29 PM, Bookery said:

first have a solid grasp of math.

I wholeheartedly support this statement!

[grendel013]

On 9/2/2024 at 4:33 PM, Math Teacher said:

I wholeheartedly support this statement!

Math is hard! But so important!

[Ken Aldred]

On 9/2/2024 at 10:59 PM, grendel013 said:

Math is hard! But so important!

Only arithmetic here, not exactly applied quantum mechanics.

[Kevin76]

My view when it comes to dealer pricing, I'll ask to look at a few things and price check them since I don't usually bring my glasses to shows. If it's over GPA for raw stuff, I just move to the next table. Most dealers can't grade so save their life and still think it's Covid time. I'm not going to sit there and yell at the dealer over pricing, but I do take into account how the book looks, I mainly shop by condition and if it's something popular I can slab and move. I don't mind paying a little bit over GPA if it's something I don't typically see and want for my personal collection. I just picked up a Batman 4 for a bit over GPA, do I care? No, cause it had white pages. 

GPA or GoCollect or whichever data you pull from isn't the end all be all for pricing, a lot of guys see a book on GPA for a $100 and don't wanna pay a penny over that and most are looking for 30% off the price and some still think that's not enough off sticker, Dealers aren't here to give stuff away and customers try to use GPA, or the fact that it's a Sunday as leverage to get a huge discount, if you can't afford comics, don't buy them. I had a guy come to the table in Baltimore wanting a Batman 121 3.0, had it priced at 2300 and offered it to him for 1900, after walking around and coming back multiple times to see it, he still trying to hammer us down, he ended up leaving without it. For him, it was a complete waste of his time, and would have been better off buying what he wanted and leaving with it right then and there, but I guess taking $400 off the price wasn't good enough.   

Edited September 2 by Kevin76

[Westy Steve]

On 9/1/2024 at 5:06 PM, VintageComics said:

I've never understood the point of these rants. There's always overpriced stuff and underpriced stuff everywhere. The market weeds them out without bias. 

Cheap stuff sells and expensive stuff won't.

Just go spend your money somewhere else. 

You’re right…rants don’t solve anything but this one made me feel better. But I also alerted my fellow collectors to the fact that “con” prices may be so high that they are better off staying home, or at least leave the sellers with fantasy prices high and dry until they price at market. 

[Buzzetta]

On 9/2/2024 at 1:29 PM, Bookery said:

I don't do shows, so I am one of those comic store dealers.  But I'm a little different in that I no longer carry new releases... purely specialize in vintage material.

But the reason I say selling to a dealer is safer is fairly obvious.  The caveat is, of course, you don't just walk in and sell willy-nilly to any dealer... you go to the ones with dependable reputations, strong cash flow, and are in position to take returns if an unseen issue arises.  But you have to do due diligence in any aspect of life.  With a dealer you get the money up front... you make the decision on whether the price is right or not.  As to dealers paying less than other forums, if you're material is decent, that's simply not the case.  I'll match what you can net at Heritage on most major items with established track records.  I think if a local shop can pay the same as the world's largest pop culture auction house, that's a pretty good deal in my book.  Plus... I pay now, not weeks or months down the road when the auction actually takes place.

Auction houses and eBay are also to various degrees crapshoots.  You might get a record price on a given day, or you may take a significant hit.  Did your Spider-Man #1 end up appearing in an auction with 4 other copies?  With eBay, you may get around 80% after fees, but eBay tends to be a market for bargain hunters... and the risk of fraud or hassle (returns) is not insignificant.  You can meet up on Craig's List or other such in-person arrangements, but obviously, there are inherent risks there too.  Dealers aren't the only option, and I've said before that different forums are right for different types of collections.  But to rule dealers out, out-of-hand, just isn't good business.

Sellers also have to take responsibility.  Recent true story: a customer brought in several SA slabs, mid-grade, no keys.  He said he'd already sold the key stuff on Heritage.  Fine.  I offered him 70% on his books and he turned me down.  He said he got 80% selling on Heritage.  I asked "even after the buyer's fees?".  Well, he admitted, sure there were buyer's fees... but after that he got 80%.  So in other words, he sold keys for 67% of net retail, but turned down 70% net for non-keys.  And I'm not even including his shipping and insurance costs.  Rule #1:  if you want to be a "player" buying and selling comics... first have a solid grasp of math.

You pay out on the high end it seems.  I will leave it at that.   

[Bookery]

On 9/2/2024 at 2:31 PM, VintageComics said:

This is not an uncommon trend. I know a few local stores that have dropped new books and simply specialize in vintage material now. 

The constant headaches from Diamond, and the pandemic sealed the deal for many stores.

How long has it been since you no longer carry new releases?

Over 2 years now.  Profits went up dramatically since doing so.

[Bookery]

On 9/2/2024 at 9:54 PM, Buzzetta said:

You pay out on the high end it seems.  I will leave it at that.   

Not necessarily.  Most of my sales are to dealers (and I don't discount), so they are paying more than I did.  Of course -- they are picking and choosing specific issues for their customers, whereas I am usually offering to buy everything.  Bulk is bulk... the going rate for $1-fodder is 10c apiece from most dealers.  And no... that is not making 1000% profit.  It seems that even at $1 only about 1/3 of a bulk purchase will sell.  If you bag your $1 stock, that's a lot more money tied up.  If you don't bag it... you have just a few weeks window to sell it before it gets too roughed-up to sell at all.

Books retailing in the $5 - $10 range don't pay a whole lot either... $1-$2 maybe... but again only a percentage of this will sell.  People often fail to realize that there are lots of books that simply won't sell at a given time or region of the country, and this can be fickle and ever-shifting.  SA/BA that is box-stock material, say $20-$50 will pay better... usually 40%-50% of expected final retail.  I don't discount and try to price low to begin with... but a lot of the higher prices you see, especially at shows, are already figuring in that they plan to discount 20% of more at time of sale.  Decent but lesser keys (raw) will bring about 55%-60%, and significant keys will bring about 70% (or even more for slabbed books, or books with a waiting want-list).  

And the above is with the current market ( a friend just brought in his Hulk #1, not to sell, but to have me check out... in his grade the value had dropped again just in the past month... if a dealer had paid the 90% that posters here sometimes demand, he would already be in the hole).  When the Covid spike was going on, dealers did often pay 100%... because prices were rapidly trending upward, and one could simply set a book aside for a few months and make a profit.  

These are just some rough spreads.  One might pay more or less for large collections, depending upon the mix of good stuff and drek.  Yes... there are "bad" dealers out there (not because they price too high... that's their business)... but because they mislead or mis-characterize collections in order to get them cheap.  That's always true of any market.  But there are just as many "bad" sellers... collectors that are misinformed about their own material, who treat eBay "asking" prices as if the books actually sold for that, who can't grasp that the auction price they just looked up is not the actual amount the consignor received, or enter a shop with a chip on their shoulder right from the start, or who expect 90% of retail for everything they sell you and then turn around and demand 20% off retail when they buy, or who themselves will try to pass off books missing pages, that have restoration etc., and feign ignorance of the fact.

The only deals worth completing are when both parties are happy.  If you don't like the offer, move on (politely).  But also don't screw yourself out of a deal because of unrealistic expectations.