Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 9 9

[Chip Cataldo]

On 9/22/2024 at 11:47 PM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

John Byrne. I met him and Dave Cockrum. Give me Dave Cockrum over Byrne any day to meet. 

John Byrne.

I had a nice spaghetti dinner with Byrne and Austin in a little restaurant in Connecticut back in 1995 after Terry and I spent several hours visiting John at his home. It was an amazing day for this comic nerd, let me tell you.

Lots of laughing and great conversation. John is a great guy and Terry has always been an amazing friend. 'Nuff said.

[Prince Namor]

On 9/23/2024 at 6:45 AM, JollyComics said:

Yes, Joe created and scripted and Jack drew Cap together in 1941. 

Joe Simon was told to hire Stan Lee.  Here is the story -

https://www.cbr.com/stan-lee-marvel-comics-timely-comics-hired/

With all due respect, Joe Simon didn't start making that claim until Kirby was dead.

I think Joe Simon's post-Kirby comic book career pretty much says it all.

And Joe Simon claiming HE hired Stan Lee is more BS - Simon tells his story differently here:

“Robbie had a sister named Celia Lieber, and one day brought in this sixteen-year-old kid* who was her son, Stanley. Martin wants you to just keep him out of the way,” he said. “Put him to work.” So young Stanley Lieber became my assistant and gopher.”

- Joe Simon from his book ‘Joe Simon: My Life in Comics’ (Titan Books, June 21, 2011)

(*Actually he was about a week or two from his 18th birthday)

And even after reading as many lies that Stan told in the OoMC, I still can chuckle at other BS he says in other places. (Like that article):

LEE: Well, I applied for a job in a publishing company... I didn't even know they published comics. I was fresh out of high school, and I wanted to get into the publishing business, if I could. There was an ad in the paper that said, "Assistant Wanted in a Publishing House." When I found out that they wanted me to assist in comics, I figured, "Well, I'll stay here for a little while and get some experience, and then I'll get out into the real world." In those days, it just didn't seem like comics was the kind of field that anybody would want to make a career in. They were the absolute bottom of the cultural totem pole. Nobody had any respect for comic books in those days.

[Prince Namor]

A write up on my book from a French Blog!

https://www.comicsblog.fr/48886-Stan_Lee_Lied__un_ouvrage_revient_sur_lensemble_des_mensonges_de_Stan_Lee

 

[KCOComics]

I'm through the prologue and the first chapter. 

I have to say - your writing style is very digestible and enjoyable. 

Having read a number of self published books - I was nervous reading it would be a strain. 

I don't think I'll make major progress until next week. 

Edited Monday at 01:16 PM by KCOComics

[Prince Namor]

On 9/23/2024 at 8:16 PM, KCOComics said:

I'm through the prologue and the first chapter. 

I have to say - your writing style is very digestible and enjoyable. 

Having read a number of self published books - I was nervous reading it would be a strain. 

I don't think I'll make major progress until next week. 

Thank you!

[The humble Watcher lurking]

On 9/23/2024 at 12:01 AM, Chip Cataldo said:

I had a nice spaghetti dinner with Byrne and Austin in a little restaurant in Connecticut back in 1995 after Terry and I spent several hours visiting John at his home. It was an amazing day for this comic nerd, let me tell you.

Lots of laughing and great conversation. John is a great guy and Terry has always been an amazing friend. 'Nuff said.

Ok. I am glad it worked out with him. Good to hear. I must have caught him on a bad day. 

 

[Mmehdy]

On 9/22/2024 at 9:16 PM, Prince Namor said:

With all due respect, Joe Simon didn't start making that claim until Kirby was dead.

I think Joe Simon's post-Kirby comic book career pretty much says it all.

And Joe Simon claiming HE hired Stan Lee is more BS - Simon tells his story differently here:

“Robbie had a sister named Celia Lieber, and one day brought in this sixteen-year-old kid* who was her son, Stanley. Martin wants you to just keep him out of the way,” he said. “Put him to work.” So young Stanley Lieber became my assistant and gopher.”

- Joe Simon from his book ‘Joe Simon: My Life in Comics’ (Titan Books, June 21, 2011)

(*Actually he was about a week or two from his 18th birthday)

And even after reading as many lies that Stan told in the OoMC, I still can chuckle at other BS he says in other places. (Like that article):

LEE: Well, I applied for a job in a publishing company... I didn't even know they published comics. I was fresh out of high school, and I wanted to get into the publishing business, if I could. There was an ad in the paper that said, "Assistant Wanted in a Publishing House." When I found out that they wanted me to assist in comics, I figured, "Well, I'll stay here for a little while and get some experience, and then I'll get out into the real world." In those days, it just didn't seem like comics was the kind of field that anybody would want to make a career in. They were the absolute bottom of the cultural totem pole. Nobody had any respect for comic books in those days.

Spot On!

[comicwiz]

On 9/22/2024 at 4:13 PM, Buzzetta said:

This is why I am not nor have I ever been on the side that Kirby should have gotten "more".  Kirby got what he agreed to.   Every job has it's pros and cons.  If the Jack Kirby ever felt that the cons outweighed the benefits he received, he could always go elsewhere or then do something else

There is no parallel to draw upon to tie-in what you're saying, in a modern world equivalence. Thus, it's a false equivalence to describe a wrong in your work situation where you were able to overcome the wrong by leaving as anything remotely similar to what happened to Kirby.

And this has abolutely nothing to do with leaving a job because you don't agree with the terms, whether they are contractually agreed upon, or changed on you unexpectedly in a new bargaining agreement achieved after you were employed.

I've already provided a brief explanation in my previous post of how this differs, simply by the deceptive ways Marvel tried to coerce Kirby to sign releases, which included signing checks which were deceptively aimed at exchanging money he had earned, for releasing his freelance creator rights. The equivalent in today's world would be more like collecting your check at work, and when you sign the back, they take your car, or your home or apartment. It isn't a stretch from a value parallel either given how much Kirby's OA commands in today's market.

The key part is he didn't, and in turn Marvel refused to return his art (his property) rightfully belonging to him. Only to have large portions of it stolen from Marvel's custody while it was held against his demands to be returned, and when the art was finally returned, represented a small fragment of what rightfully belonged to him. Marvel's illegal confiscation led to a massive financial harm to Kirby's family and estate, and the choice to act in this illegal manner was led by one person: Flashman.

A better parallel would be to look at other artists such as Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster, or the estates of Truman Capote, Norman Rockwell, and Lorenz Hart (of Broadway's Rodgers and Hart) which are examples of creators and estates that have exercised their termination rights. These rights exist because congress realized they need to protect these creators from permanent loss of an inequitable deal they entered into when they had little negotiating skill or leverage. Describing this as anything differently, or to minimize the illegal actions Marvel engaged in is legitimizing theft, and that's not something I either take lightly or accept with some illogical, inaccurate or false equivalence depicting it as anything the average person deals with in the modern world through inequitable, but legal terms of employment. Those contravening labour laws are a different story, and without context or details, it's still not a fair comparison to bring into a freelance creator being screwed out of his legacy, his fortunes, and the entitlement of his heirs to excercise termination rights. Fortunately, the settlement in 2013 resolved what was rightfully belonging to the Kirby heirs, but the misconceptions and untruths being spread continue, and that's really something that could easily be remedied by doing some research on this subject, and the Kirby case in particular, before talking about it like Kirby deserved what he got.

Edited Tuesday at 02:03 PM by comicwiz

[Mmehdy]

Kirby had a family to support, kids to feed, and came from a background of day to day survival ....opposite of Stan...but the way I look at it, if the table had been turned Jack would have given Stan full credit for what he done...that is the difference maker here

[namisgr]

Conjecture this:

If Stan didn't write "Face it, tiger, you just hit the jackpot" for the last page in ASM #42, who did?

[Mmehdy]

On 9/23/2024 at 12:31 PM, namisgr said:

Conjecture this:

If Stan didn't write "Face it, tiger, you just hit the jackpot" for the last page in ASM #42, who did?

JERRY SIEGEL AND JOE SHUSTER....OF COURSE!

[VintageComics]

[Prince Namor]

On 9/24/2024 at 2:31 AM, namisgr said:

Conjecture this:

If Stan didn't write "Face it, tiger, you just hit the jackpot" for the last page in ASM #42, who did?

No one's questioning what he obviously wrote.

[Prince Namor]

No one's questioning that Stan Lee wrote dialogue. That was the nepotists' policy, they had to follow it.

No one's questioning Lee coming up with a fan club. Or Marvel Value Stamp's where he promised prizes for those who filled up the book and then never did send anything.

No one's questioning Lee's 'ballyhoo'. Even though Marvel never really came close to DC in sales all throughout the 60's (Archie Comics out sold them in the 60's as well) and fell in distribution so much in the 70's they were on the verge of bankruptcy in 1977. You know... the year's that Stan Lee was publisher and had ultimate power.

No one's questioning Lee's impact on the cultural landscape of America, even if he never got a movie made for Marvel while DC knocked out 4 Superman movies and 4 Batman movies before Sony - NOT Marvel - finally made a Spider-man movie. 

 

What's in question is how much Lee fans can make an excuse for a guy who basically screwed over and stepped on everyone in his professional life to get where he was - including the one man who saved his job and gave him a platform to LIE about and become famous. (Jack Kirby)

What's in question is his lack of creativity without Kirby there to do it for him. 

But hey, I understand. There isn't much defense for it. 

 

 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/24/2024 at 5:34 AM, VintageComics said:

Lee stole that idea too. 

EC from 1953. Shield G-Man Club 1943. Archie Fan Club from the 50's. Supermen of America Fan Club 1943. The idea had been around almost since the start of comics.

Lee just had never had an artist like Jack Kirby who could excite fans enough to actually write in and take part in things. 

[bc]

Even earlier...1937

-bc

[grendel013]

On 9/23/2024 at 9:11 PM, bc said:

Even earlier...1937

-bc

There wouldn't be the boards if it weren't for these guys!

[Readcomix]

On 9/23/2024 at 3:55 PM, Mmehdy said:

JERRY SIEGEL AND JOE SHUSTER....OF COURSE!

Don’t be silly! … It was Bob Kane….

[namisgr]

On 9/23/2024 at 8:31 PM, Prince Namor said:

No one's questioning what he obviously wrote.

 

On 9/22/2024 at 4:58 PM, PopKulture said:

After his creator/artists brought him fully-fleshed out story pages! He didn’t write the stories: he sometimes edited their dialogue and, as you insist, may have added an insight or story element here or there.

Edited Tuesday at 02:37 AM by namisgr

[Prince Namor]

On 9/24/2024 at 9:36 AM, namisgr said:

 

   On 9/23/2024 at 3:58 AM,  PopKulture said:

After his creator/artists brought him fully-fleshed out story pages! He didn’t write the stories: he sometimes edited their dialogue and, as you insist, may have added an insight or story element here or there.

He didn't write the stories. His artists did. 

And he sometimes edited their dialogue. We know this from original art pages where he took what Kirby wrote and altered it slightly.

He even says, "may have added an insight or story element here or there", which is true.

Which part are you saying is wrong?