Trim JIM in Heritage Auction

[Red Hook]

Answer yourrself truthfully to this question.

 

If the fact that Doug being disbarred never surfaced, whould you still be this concerned?

 

I have respect for Doug, FFB and Brent, Red and alot of the members that have voiced their opinions in this matter. I choose to believe in human forgetfullness over pure deceit. Since he opened the doors to Pedigree, I have never seen a hint od deceit or shadyness from his end.

 

Bottom line is you either believe him or you dont.

 

That's about it.

 

 

And if anyone doesn't believe him at this point and doesn't want to do business with him, it doesn't bother me in the least.

 

Why would it bother you either way? That's paramount to me saying, "If you don't want to do business with Walmart, it doesn't bother me a bit". Of coarse it won't bother you, it's not your business. Doug may feel differently.

 

Earlier in this thread, there was this, "Why is everyone piling on Red" feeling and It's because you act like every post directed to Doug is a post directed at you.

 

I'm not trying to argue with you over anything and unless you have some answers to my earlier questions with the timeline, I don't see the point in your response.

 

I don't know whether I do or don't believe Doug at this point because someone is lying. If it's not Doug, that's great, and the debate will turn another direction.

 

Personally, I think you're looking for a definitive answer to something, where a conclusive answer probably doesn't exist. It's also quite plausible that each party may totally believe in their own version of the facts. You know how you can have six direct eye-witnesses to an event and each one sees something different? I think you're just going to end up frustrating yourself. But if you want to chase your own tail, be my guest. Glad you have the time.

 

Hey, John....this is a chat board. I'm chattin' here! Relax!

 

Red

[Aman619]

here's a new angle I'm mulling over: Why does a dealer with his own top-ranked website choose to sell his own books thru an Auction Co. that will keep at least 15% of the selling price? Okay, we can think of some easy reasons (genre, reach, etc) but as a businessman, I dont get it; especially for a typical Pedigree-type HG early Marvel. If youre faced with getting stuck with a book, why choose a venue that nets you the least?

 

The same reason lots of people consign to Heritage.....

 

Up-Front Money.

 

what upfront money? Heritage pays you upfront when you consign? never heard that

[drbanner]

[Scheradon]

Answer yourrself truthfully to this question.

 

If the fact that Doug being disbarred never surfaced, whould you still be this concerned?

 

I have respect for Doug, FFB and Brent, Red and alot of the members that have voiced their opinions in this matter. I choose to believe in human forgetfullness over pure deceit. Since he opened the doors to Pedigree, I have never seen a hint od deceit or shadyness from his end.

 

Bottom line is you either believe him or you dont.

 

That's about it.

 

 

And if anyone doesn't believe him at this point and doesn't want to do business with him, it doesn't bother me in the least.

 

Why would it bother you either way? That's paramount to me saying, "If you don't want to do business with Walmart, it doesn't bother me a bit". Of coarse it won't bother you, it's not your business. Doug may feel differently.

 

Earlier in this thread, there was this, "Why is everyone piling on Red" feeling and It's because you act like every post directed to Doug is a post directed at you.

 

I'm not trying to argue with you over anything and unless you have some answers to my earlier questions with the timeline, I don't see the point in your response.

 

I don't know whether I do or don't believe Doug at this point because someone is lying. If it's not Doug, that's great, and the debate will turn another direction.

 

Personally, I think you're looking for a definitive answer to something, where a conclusive answer probably doesn't exist. It's also quite plausible that each party may totally believe in their own version of the facts. You know how you can have six direct eye-witnesses to an event and each one sees something different? I think you're just going to end up frustrating yourself. But if you want to chase your own tail, be my guest. Glad you have the time.

 

Hey, John....this is a chat board. I'm chattin' here! Relax!

 

Red

 

You're probably right Brad,

 

It's 3am here and I'm doing that Atkins diet with my wife, so I haven't had my chocolate fix, so maybe that's it.

 

I'm going to bed, perhaps tomorrow will be a brighter day.

[Aman619]

 

 

but sir, may I please have another?

[Red Hook]

 

 

It's 3am here and I'm doing that Atkins diet with my wife, so I haven't had my chocolate fix, so maybe that's it.

 

I'm going to bed, perhaps tomorrow will be a brighter day.

 

Pleasant dreams......and here's a new avatar for you!

 

[shadroch]

There is a simple way to resolve some of this.

All Doug needs to do is show a scan of the invoice. That will show us the date CGC recieved the book,the date it was graded,and the date it was picked up. Surely he still has the invoice.

 

If the meeting with Brulato took place,it had to have been after 10-26 when Doug had the book in hand. The books went to Heritage 11-12,so why do people keep saying months occured in between. And how can Doug say that months went by after Brent informed him of the trimming before he resubmitted the book,yet claim the book was resubbed in September,before he was told it was trimmed?

[Red Hook]

I'm sorry but you're still not getting a badge. You have to produce results, not just high levels of irritation.

 

Red

[shadroch]

Brad,

What do you think of these descrepincies?

You seem to accept them at face value,dispite the email evidence that contradicts them. Why is this? I thought the purpose of investigations was to go in with an open mind and follow the evidence to a conclusion,not pre-form an opinion and wait for it to be disproved?Is that your normal modus operatus?

[Red Hook]

Yeah, but I'm letting my critics carry the ball for the moment. I'll be curious to see if you find anything conclusive. You seem not to be satisfied yet, so you have every right to continue on. I happen to be satisfied for myself that the current explanations are in sync with the scale of the concerns. A little discrepency is good for the soul. If you can knit something devious out of all this, go for it.

 

Red

[Aman619]

There is a simple way to resolve some of this.

All Doug needs to do is show a scan of the invoice. That will show us the date CGC recieved the book,the date it was graded,and the date it was picked up. Surely he still has the invoice.

 

If the meeting with Brulato took place,it had to have been after 10-26 when Doug had the book in hand. The books went to Heritage 11-12,so why do people keep saying months occured in between. And how can Doug say that months went by after Brent informed him of the trimming before he resubmitted the book,yet claim the book was resubbed in September,before he was told it was trimmed?

 

Im not working on the timeline. I like the line about not remembering last week's lunch. I was just wondering aloud about why I might want to sell my inventory through a competitor who would pay me 85% of the sell price (at best with zero sellers commission) when I could do it myself (faster, slower whatever) an dkeep 100%.

 

there are many reasons to do so, but for me. I dont sub out my jobs and share the proceeds with a competitor without one that makes sense. Who knows, maybe Doug owed them money for an unpaid book in a previous auction and gave them books instead...

[FFB]

Ok, first I'm going to try and put forth a timeline here from what I've gathered from the posts:

 

Months before Sept. 12th..Doug gets email or phone call from Brent alerting him of possible trim -per Doug (disputed by Brent)

 

September 12th..Book submitted to CGC by Doug -per Doug

 

October 5th........Doug recieves email from Scott about book possibly being trimmed

 

October 6th........Book was graded by CGC- per Doug

 

October 7th........Book was graded by CGC -per Doug (later ammended to the 6th)

 

October 11th.......Doug recieves email from Brent about book being possibly trimmed -per Brent

 

October 13th......Book encapsulated by CGC -per Doug

 

October 26th......Book is picked up from CGC by Doug -per Doug

 

November 12th....Book sent to heritage by Doug for January auction -per Doug

 

These are some of the important dates I could find. I now have some questions:

 

1)If the book was at CGC like Doug's dates suggest, why when alerted twice (once by Scott on the 5th and once by Brent on the 11th) didn't Doug contact CGC to alert them it was a possible trim job?

 

2)Doug has mentioned many times that he forgot about the book being a possible trim suspect. When was this forgotton? Before, during(inbetween the two emails), or after Brent and Scott's emails? Doug states he forgot it was a Ewart book and consigned it to Heritage on Novemebr 12th, but it was brought up to him on October 5th, & 11th while still at CGC. I need this to be clarified.

 

3)If on October 5th, the book was at CGC, why did Doug tell Scott that he would contact his customer. It would seem an odd statement to me to make, rather than saying he would contact CGC and alert them.

 

I have more concerns, but am trying to stay more within the facts than rampid speculation. My questions I have posted, I feel are valid observations though. I'm not trying to say anyone in particular is lying, but someone in this scenario is being less than truthful (perhaps in honest error even).

 

Thanks, John

 

Exactly.

 

Doug, I want to believe you. I really do. But this timeline doesn't jibe with your story. If you had 50 Ewert books on your site that you had to deal with, then I could understand that you just biffed big time on the JIM 92 by forgetting it.

 

But right here, on October 2, 2005, you're saying you only had two or three Ewert books on your site, that you'd pulled them all, and at that point, your site was Ewert free. Then three days later, there's another Ewert book on your site and you forget to deal with it appropriately?

 

Why didn't you tell CGC that the JIM 92 was a Ewert book, since they still had it when you were told that it was a Ewert book? It hadn't even been graded yet when I emailed you.

 

So what's the story, Doug? Did you just f up and forget to tell CGC about the book the day you were told it was a Ewert book? Did you think that CGC would catch the trim whether you identified the book as a Ewert book or not? The logical part of me believes that you didn't try to launder the book, because even if Brulato didn't want to refund you, CGC said they'd refund anyone would couldn't get a refund from Brulato (I am assuming you knew that CGC would refund anyone who couldn't get a refund from Tom).

 

So WTF is up with all your different accounts of what happened with this book?

[FFB]

here's a new angle I'm mulling over: Why does a dealer with his own top-ranked website choose to sell his own books thru an Auction Co. that will keep at least 15% of the selling price? Okay, we can think of some easy reasons (genre, reach, etc) but as a businessman, I dont get it; especially for a typical Pedigree-type HG early Marvel. If youre faced with getting stuck with a book, why choose a venue that nets you the least?

 

And I'm not jumping to the perhaps obvious conclusion that Doug tried to hide his ownership of the book on Heritage. (How is it hiding a book by entering it into Heritage's timeless scan repository for all to scrutinize?) Why give Heritage a total of 80 OTHER books as well? More evidence of trying to hide a needle in a haystack? nahh. The 15% loss on the pile would be worse than eating the lone JIM92. or close enough.

 

If he meant to obscure his ownership of the book, why Heritage? Doug doesnt own every book on Pedigree does he? He might be able to hide behind Heritage refusing to divulge the consignor of the book, but not for long. Word gets out about these things anyway.

 

So ,,,, why Heritage?? Whta the true significance of it being consigned, if any?

 

Heritage keeps 26.09% of the amount paid by the buyer. If someone bids $3500 on a book on Heritage, you add the 15% buyer's premium to get a total bid of $4,025. This is what the buyer is willing to pay for the book. The seller gets $3500 minus 15%, for a total of $2975. $2975 is roughly 73.91% of $4,025.

 

Which of course makes your original question re WHY a lot more compelling.

[Harvey Dude]

Date book was submitted-Doug says mid-Sept,with other books and he says he

has amex bill to back it up. Brent reports that it is listed as a single submission on CGCs site.

 

At $3500 FMV and based on the price submissions, express and walk through seem to

be the two available options so the book would have been graded from one to five business

days based on the CGC published schedule and the tier chosen. Of course, CGC could

have been backlogged back then.

[FFB]

Date book was submitted-Doug says mid-Sept,with other books and he says he

has amex bill to back it up. Brent reports that it is listed as a single submission on CGCs site.

 

At $3500 FMV and based on the price submissions, express and walk through seem to

be the two available options so the book would have been graded from one to five business

days based on the CGC published schedule and the tier chosen. Of course, CGC could

have been backlogged back then.

 

I don't think the backlog from back then affected express subs. All my express subs within the last couple of years came back on time, even when CGC was at its slowest. I have to think that for a mega-submitter like Doug, it wouldn't take almost a month to get an express sub graded.

 

All that said, if Doug has an invoice showing that he submitted it in early- or mid-September, then it doesn't matter what happened to my express subs or anyone else's. All that matters is what happened to that book. So let's see a scan of the invoice and that will be that.

[Aman619]

here's a new angle I'm mulling over: Why does a dealer with his own top-ranked website choose to sell his own books thru an Auction Co. that will keep at least 15% of the selling price? Okay, we can think of some easy reasons (genre, reach, etc) but as a businessman, I dont get it; especially for a typical Pedigree-type HG early Marvel. If youre faced with getting stuck with a book, why choose a venue that nets you the least?

 

And I'm not jumping to the perhaps obvious conclusion that Doug tried to hide his ownership of the book on Heritage. (How is it hiding a book by entering it into Heritage's timeless scan repository for all to scrutinize?) Why give Heritage a total of 80 OTHER books as well? More evidence of trying to hide a needle in a haystack? nahh. The 15% loss on the pile would be worse than eating the lone JIM92. or close enough.

 

If he meant to obscure his ownership of the book, why Heritage? Doug doesnt own every book on Pedigree does he? He might be able to hide behind Heritage refusing to divulge the consignor of the book, but not for long. Word gets out about these things anyway.

 

So ,,,, why Heritage?? Whta the true significance of it being consigned, if any?

 

Heritage keeps 26.09% of the amount paid by the buyer. If someone bids $3500 on a book on Heritage, you add the 15% buyer's premium to get a total bid of $4,025. This is what the buyer is willing to pay for the book. The seller gets $3500 minus 15%, for a total of $2975. $2975 is roughly 73.91% of $4,025.

 

Which of course makes your original question re WHY a lot more compelling.

 

I always try to write as short and sweet as I can... so I stated "at least 15%" so as not to get into all the possibilities of whether or not a 'BSD' like Dougs has the sellers 15% waived completely, or just lowered down to 5 or 10%. We know thats pretty common depending on th ecircumstances. capische?

 

(I noticed I didnt even say "at least.." keeping it REAL short that time...!

[FFB]

here's a new angle I'm mulling over: Why does a dealer with his own top-ranked website choose to sell his own books thru an Auction Co. that will keep at least 15% of the selling price? Okay, we can think of some easy reasons (genre, reach, etc) but as a businessman, I dont get it; especially for a typical Pedigree-type HG early Marvel. If youre faced with getting stuck with a book, why choose a venue that nets you the least?

 

And I'm not jumping to the perhaps obvious conclusion that Doug tried to hide his ownership of the book on Heritage. (How is it hiding a book by entering it into Heritage's timeless scan repository for all to scrutinize?) Why give Heritage a total of 80 OTHER books as well? More evidence of trying to hide a needle in a haystack? nahh. The 15% loss on the pile would be worse than eating the lone JIM92. or close enough.

 

If he meant to obscure his ownership of the book, why Heritage? Doug doesnt own every book on Pedigree does he? He might be able to hide behind Heritage refusing to divulge the consignor of the book, but not for long. Word gets out about these things anyway.

 

So ,,,, why Heritage?? Whta the true significance of it being consigned, if any?

 

Heritage keeps 26.09% of the amount paid by the buyer. If someone bids $3500 on a book on Heritage, you add the 15% buyer's premium to get a total bid of $4,025. This is what the buyer is willing to pay for the book. The seller gets $3500 minus 15%, for a total of $2975. $2975 is roughly 73.91% of $4,025.

 

Which of course makes your original question re WHY a lot more compelling.

 

I always try to write as short and sweet as I can... so I stated "at least 15%" so as not to get into all the possibilities of whether or not a 'BSD' like Dougs has the sellers 15% waived completely, or just lowered down to 5 or 10%. We know thats pretty common depending on th ecircumstances. capische?

 

(I noticed I didnt even say "at least.." keeping it REAL short that time...!

 

[esquirecomics]

here's a new angle I'm mulling over: Why does a dealer with his own top-ranked website choose to sell his own books thru an Auction Co. that will keep at least 15% of the selling price? Okay, we can think of some easy reasons (genre, reach, etc) but as a businessman, I dont get it; especially for a typical Pedigree-type HG early Marvel. If youre faced with getting stuck with a book, why choose a venue that nets you the least?

 

And I'm not jumping to the perhaps obvious conclusion that Doug tried to hide his ownership of the book on Heritage. (How is it hiding a book by entering it into Heritage's timeless scan repository for all to scrutinize?) Why give Heritage a total of 80 OTHER books as well? More evidence of trying to hide a needle in a haystack? nahh. The 15% loss on the pile would be worse than eating the lone JIM92. or close enough.

 

If he meant to obscure his ownership of the book, why Heritage? Doug doesnt own every book on Pedigree does he? He might be able to hide behind Heritage refusing to divulge the consignor of the book, but not for long. Word gets out about these things anyway.

 

So ,,,, why Heritage?? Whta the true significance of it being consigned, if any?

 

Many dealers, including myself, have done this. Two primary reasons. First, I guarantee you that Doug was not paying a 15% SP. Probably not more than 7.5%, if that. Second, Heritage throws a far wider net than most any comic website and has an enormous customer base. I consigned books in the last auction and most of the books sold for more than what I paid (though I lost money on a bunch due to BP/SP), and some of them actually sold for more than what I was asking on my site!

[Aman619]

okay. I can see you doing it. Your website is all word of mouth. but Doug advertises his site in comics trade publications etc. He has more traffic than you. Not as much as Heritage.. but somewhere on the scale inbetween. I just dont see the economics of it, ... especially for a "one-of-a kind- book. 3 in 9.4. only one for sale.

 

Im just thinking... not trying to prove anything...

[esquirecomics]

okay. I can see you doing it. Your website is all word of mouth. but Doug advertises his site in comics trade publications etc. He has more traffic than you. Not as much as Heritage.. but somewhere on the scale inbetween. I just dont see the economics of it, ... especially for a "one-of-a kind- book. 3 in 9.4. only one for sale.

 

Im just thinking... not trying to prove anything...

 

No doubt about it that he has more traffic than I do. It is obviously his business and worthwhile to promote far more extensively than I do, but still I have ads in Overstreet and CBM. You'd be surprised, perhaps, to learn - b/c I was frankly - that some collectors who spend six figures on books don't have an OS guide or - less surprisingly - subscribe to CBM.

 

The other reason to consign to an auction site, whether Heritage or Hakes or whomever, is that if you need quick cash, you can either get an advance or at least expect x $$$ in whatever period of time. Meaning, that 9.4 copy may sit on the site for awhile, but you know it will fetch x $$$ through the auction house and you need to sell it sooner rather that later.

 

The economics are there, and of course they may vary depending upon the person's situation.

 

For example, while I can sit on the Showcase #4 CGC 9.2 I have, and that is why I have it at a high price on the site, I've decided to try and part with it for a lower profit margin and have consigned it to Hakes for their March auction.