Trim JIM in Heritage Auction

[Ze-man]

It was 4 in the mornin bro, when you wrote that question. Cut yourself some slack.

 

I too think pressing is the devil, and can ruin a good many books. Bit misplaced aggression aint gonna change that.

 

Ze-

 

I don't think pressing is the devil, nor those that have books pressed. There are members here that have clearly stated that they've had books pressed in the past. Did you ever see me attacking them for it? This is a matter of 'intent'...nothing more.

 

 

I meant "pressing for money only" I DO think that is the devils playground.

Was not clear about that.

Sorry

 

And I dont wanna discuss who is attacking who anymore, it wears me out.

Ya got a beef, or a question. Ask away, I shoulda stayed out of it. I aint mad at you, or anyone else.

 

The present troubling issues are enough for me to try and follow.

 

Ze-

[shadroch]

 

Red;

 

Based upon your above statement, I guess we must assume that grading is a good thing while conservation must be a bad thing.

 

After all, CGC and all the dealers seems to be very open with all of their grading stats such as hyping highest graded copy and providing census information for everybody to see. Yet at the same time, PCS is forcing everybody to sign non-disclosure agreements in order to use their services.

 

I guess PCS is really nothing more than a formal and professional way of moving restoration work back into the darkened basements of the hobby similar to the bad bad pre-CGC days of the 80's and 90's.

 

Yeah, that's about it. The slime factor is pretty much up there. It's about deceit, favoritism, lack of impartiality, and yes, manipulation of the market, .....all the things CGC claimed they were going to keep us safer from.

 

Red

 

 

 

'hook,

If you feel this way about PCS,then why not feel the same disdain for anyone who uses their services? How are the dealers who participate in market manipulation,deceit and other slimey activity any better? Yet you keep giving them free passes. Whats up with that?

[batman_fan]

Personally, I think the arguement that CGC grades a lot of books so if they miss a few, well cut them some slack is complete [embarrassing lack of self control]. What if I buy the Batman 1 off CLINK, resub it and it comes back restored, I am now out ~$250k and I am suppose to say oh well, they grade a lot of books so it is okay. I expect perfection at a lot of levels. I use to work in the aircraft avionics industry and I can tell you, we had to be 100% perfect. If Honeywell had taken this same BS attitude, there could be flight delays and possibly dead people. Before the Dumb A$$'s jump up and say there is a difference, you are 100% WRONG. How happy are you going to be if this happens in our daily lives with everything we but (CDs, electronics, etc.). CGC HAS to get better.

[tth2]

your point that they have not identified any new ones since the Jason fiasco is certainly not encouraging to me.

Notwithstanding Doug's comment, I don't believe this is true. Steve Borock has told me that CGC HAS identified some more trim jobs among the Ewert books that were resubmitted to CGC. Steve, when we spoke previously, you said it was still too early to disclose. But several months have passed since then and I think it's high time CGC disclosed how many have been submitted and how many additional trim jobs have been found. Of course, I note that these are all books that CGC KNEW to look very carefully for trimming, so it doesn't address how adept CGC has become at picking up this trimming in general.

 

What's even more discouraging, however, is not only the lack of CGC's concern with pressing, but their behind the scenes clear and obvious encouragement and full support of this undetectable restoration activity.

Just once, could we keep the discussion on track? The issue here is trimming, not pressing. Lou, with all due respect, if you want to bemoan CGC's position on pressing (again), or any other of CGC's failings, start another thread. They've stated their position their position and even though I think it's wrong too, complaining about it again isn't going to change it.

 

On the other hand, CGC do NOT permit trimming, but have shown a distressing inability to detect it. Let's not dilute this thread by distracting people from the main issue at hand and simply turning it into a general airing of grievances against CGC.

[Red Hook]

 

 

 

'hook,

If you feel this way about PCS,then why not feel the same disdain for anyone who uses their services? How are the dealers who participate in market manipulation,deceit and other slimey activity any better? Yet you keep giving them free passes. Whats up with that?

 

Shad, let's just settle for the fact that you and I disagree on the relative importance of these two issues. You obviously feel equal distain for the service and it's customers. I'd just rather focus on the existance of the service itself.....I believe my energies are more effectively used discussing that. If you want to handle the customer end, you have my blessing. But I think targeting individuals will have less effective results. You call it a free pass. I call it focusing my energies where I think it will do the most good.

 

Do you feel distain for anyone that knowing of this manipulation behind the scenes and uses CGC's standardd services? By your logic, anyone here who owns a CGC book or uses their standard services, and knows that this stuff is probably going on, and who in essence is supporting CGC and PCS indirectly, should be quilty also. I mean, we're all sending dollars CGC's way...right?

 

Let's take it a little further. You, as a poster on these boards, contribute (positively or negatively) to the buzz around CGC and it's product. You basically validate the importance of CGC by posting here. Unless you boycotted these boards I would say you're an accomplice too!

 

Let's round everyone up! Yahoo!

 

Is that correct?

[tth2]

What if I buy the Batman 1 off CLINK, resub it and it comes back restored, I am now out ~$250k and I am suppose to say oh well, they grade a lot of books so it is okay.

I would say don't resub it in the first place.

[shadroch]

Brad,

Why do you continue to try to distract from the main points. If PCS is bad,which we both agree on, then ostricize the people who use it. Plain and simple. Nothing about CGC,forums,toilet paper or any other mcguffguins you might chose to throw out there.

Its not like these are end-users that are using the service.I doubt that anyone is using PCS for improving their own collection. Its being used to manipulate the market,as you yourself stated.

You stated,plain and simple,that your source told you that Schnell and Brulato were two dealers who use PCS.Obviously you believe your source,or you wouldn't post it,correct?

So how can you support these dealers when they are using a product you condem?

[jkrk]

Personally, I think the arguement that CGC grades a lot of books so if they miss a few, well cut them some slack is complete [embarrassing lack of self control]. What if I buy the Batman 1 off CLINK, resub it and it comes back restored, I am now out ~$250k and I am suppose to say oh well, they grade a lot of books so it is okay. I expect perfection at a lot of levels. I use to work in the aircraft avionics industry and I can tell you, we had to be 100% perfect. If Honeywell had taken this same BS attitude, there could be flight delays and possibly dead people. Before the Dumb A$$'s jump up and say there is a difference, you are 100% WRONG. How happy are you going to be if this happens in our daily lives with everything we but (CDs, electronics, etc.). CGC HAS to get better.

 

 

Afte reading about the hobbies "black eye" stemming from the Ewert problems to CGC;s less than perfect grading I am glad that I came to terms with my involvement in the hobby. Here are some of my views.

 

1)I now fully recognize CGC's limitations. Micro trimming is very unlikely to be caught as is pressing. Will new advances in technology help CGC or the scammer more?

 

2)Comics are a collectible. I enjoy collecting, viewing the covers, amd trading the books. I have allocated a relatively small but shrinking (as the scandals broke) sum of money to the hobby.

 

3)Is Brulato innocent? In my book, A partner of a scammer is guilty until proven innocent. Testinonials from friends doesn't cut it for me. How much of the "illegal"

profits have been donated to charity/the industry defense fund?

 

4)In regard to another post: I still buy from Heritage. I understand that the services that they are providing to the buyer are: running an auction, colleting money, and shipping the books. I must do all the research and I am taking the risks. My gut tells me that statistically CGC catches most of the restorations and their grading is decent. The risks of a mistake on any one book are too great for me to accept so I've made the decision to keep my buys to the $500-5000 range. I can live with a few markdowns.

 

5)Whatever vig heritage wishes to take is fine with me. I am a very disciplined buyer. I know my maximum bid for each book I am interested in (including commission) and simply adjust the price I can pay Heritage which reflects their buyers premium.

 

6)I guess that most posters rant in hopes to improve the hobby. THey express their dissatisfaction hoping that those insiders within the hobby will take notice and initiate some sort of change. I simply look at the current state of the hobby and adjust my participation based on my confidence or lack of confidence in the prospect for change.

[adamstrange]

your point that they have not identified any new ones since the Jason fiasco is certainly not encouraging to me.

Notwithstanding Doug's comment, I don't believe this is true. Steve Borock has told me that CGC HAS identified some more trim jobs among the Ewert books that were resubmitted to CGC. Steve, when we spoke previously, you said it was still too early to disclose. But several months have passed since then and I think it's high time CGC disclosed how many have been submitted and how many additional trim jobs have been found. Of course, I note that these are all books that CGC KNEW to look very carefully for trimming, so it doesn't address how adept CGC has become at picking up this trimming in general.

 

What's even more discouraging, however, is not only the lack of CGC's concern with pressing, but their behind the scenes clear and obvious encouragement and full support of this undetectable restoration activity.

Just once, could we keep the discussion on track? The issue here is trimming, not pressing. Lou, with all due respect, if you want to bemoan CGC's position on pressing (again), or any other of CGC's failings, start another thread. They've stated their position their position and even though I think it's wrong too, complaining about it again isn't going to change it.

 

On the other hand, CGC do NOT permit trimming, but have shown a distressing inability to detect it. Let's not dilute this thread by distracting people from the main issue at hand and simply turning it into a general airing of grievances against CGC.

 

Both excellent points.

[Red Hook]

Brad,

Why do you continue to try to distract from the main points. If PCS is bad,which we both agree on, then ostricize the people who use it. Plain and simple. Nothing about CGC,forums,toilet paper or any other mcguffguins you might chose to throw out there.

Its not like these are end-users that are using the service.I doubt that anyone is using PCS for improving their own collection. Its being used to manipulate the market,as you yourself stated.

You stated,plain and simple,that your source told you that Schnell and Brulato were two dealers who use PCS.Obviously you believe your source,or you wouldn't post it,correct?

So how can you support these dealers when they are using a product you condem?

 

I answered all your questions in my previous post.

 

I find it interesting that you've done everything but call out CGC and PCS. Are you a closet apologist? It's obvious that you have some personal gripe with me. Why is my opinion so supremely important to you? You do your thing, I'll do mine.

 

Why do you think people trust me with information like this? And not you? Think about it.

[shadroch]

The old "I've got a PM in my pocket" trick,eh?

Maybe because they know you won't do anything with it? Like the 'news' you sat on for over a year rather than share it.

[Red Hook]

Brad,

Why do you continue to try to distract from the main points. If PCS is bad,which we both agree • on, then ostricize the people who use it. Plain and simple.

 

Man, Shad's Comic Book Jihad! Sign me up! And how do you suggest one "ostracize" individuals? What is this, the CGC Putsch? I love hearing this from all the guys that used to accuse me of witchhuntin'!

 

Nothing about CGC,forums,toilet paper or any other mcguffguins you might chose to throw out there.

Its not like these are end-users that are using the service.

 

Why don't you use those detectin's skills of yours and run down your own sources. I suspect that PCS has more than two or three clients. Let's get the WHOLE LIST and run 'em all out of town!!!

 

I doubt that anyone is using PCS for improving their own collection. Its being used to manipulate the market,as you yourself stated.

 

I would disagree with that. I suspect there are plenty of collectors using it to upgrade their own collection. But don't let any actual facts stop you from speculating.

 

You stated,plain and simple,that your source told you that Schnell and Brulato were two dealers who use PCS.Obviously you believe your source,or you wouldn't post it,correct?

So how can you support these dealers when they are using a product you condem?

 

And how exactly have I supported "these dealers"? Besides, wouldn't it be my personal choice as to how I chose to act on this information? I'll leave the virtual pillaging to big tough guys like you. Meanwhile I'll keep mining for actual information!

 

Red

[Red Hook]

The old "I've got a PM in my pocket" trick,eh?

Maybe because they know you won't do anything with it? Like the 'news' you sat on for over a year rather than share it.

 

I was right. This is personal.

[batman_fan]

Except that CGC recommends reholding

[Norrin_Radd]

Shad's Comic Book Jihad!

[jbud73]

Aaaargh whoever just deleted a post killed my post cause I couldnt reply because it was deleted and you can go back cause that erases it anyway

 

Well to recap.

 

1. CGC cannot detect the Ewert trimming technique with consistency. Tim, Steve can say they've caught books, but all we Know as fact is that we continue to catch books that they DIDN't catch. That fact makes my statement true and everything else speculation.

 

2. CCG has set up an in-house restoration service for comic books. CCG is the parent company of CGC. From a business perspective this is understandable - why pay to out source what you can do yourself. But the net effect is that CGC is a weaker entity. They took the resto expert away (= catch less resto) he is now restoring books. I will assume that he is doing to most lucrative form of resto... NDP. Why? Low cost, low man hours, high return potential.

 

3. I'm not here to rake Doug over the coals for pressing books.... however I will not pay the huge multiples he and other large dealer are asking for 9.4 up slabbed books either. While the argument can be made that not all HG books are pressed, or can become HG books by pressing. That is true. However, since the dealers will not disclose which books are in fact pressed, I must therefore work under the assumption that they are all pressed. Their initial position dictates my response logic...

 

4. Until the following formula is no longer true. 9.2 = X dollars...... Cost of pressing = Y dollars .... 9.4/9.6= 10x (X+Y)

 

The current stautus will remain the status quo and around and around we will go.

 

Oh and the "Well person XYZ loves the hobby so they would never do this or that argument is a load of " These people do NOT make their living by LOVING THE HOBBY - They make their living by SELLING GOODS - in this instance comic books. Potential financial success will almost always Trump altruistic behavior.

[FFB]

Brad,

Why do you continue to try to distract from the main points. If PCS is bad,which we both agree on, then ostricize the people who use it. Plain and simple. Nothing about CGC,forums,toilet paper or any other mcguffguins you might chose to throw out there.

Its not like these are end-users that are using the service.I doubt that anyone is using PCS for improving their own collection. Its being used to manipulate the market,as you yourself stated.

You stated,plain and simple,that your source told you that Schnell and Brulato were two dealers who use PCS.Obviously you believe your source,or you wouldn't post it,correct?

So how can you support these dealers when they are using a product you condem?

 

I answered all your questions in my previous post.

 

I find it interesting that you've done everything but call out CGC and PCS. Are you a closet apologist? It's obvious that you have some personal gripe with me. Why is my opinion so supremely important to you? You do your thing, I'll do mine.

 

Why do you think people trust me with information like this? And not you? Think about it.

 

My guess is because you've shown you can't keep things secret. Whoever told you wanted the information out there.

[Red Hook]

No, I asked my source if it was cool, and they said sure. .

[FFB]

No, I asked my source if it was cool, and they said sure. .

 

...for a change.

[Red Hook]

Wow, you must have really gotten a bee up yer azz when it was made public that you were the guy that couldn't wait to spread the word about Doug's disbarrment. Nice job.

 

Yeah, I can see you really respect privacy. And you called me a hypocrite.

 

Brad