Jonah Hex: The First Bronze Age Anti-hero?

[Psiknight]

My guess is that the All-Star Western had a much lower print run? I'd certainly believe that more people are searching for Conan 1 than AS-Western 10.

 

All-Star Western 10 was not a big key until well into the 1990's. Like I said, few cared about Hex' first appearance, or even worried about it until OS and Wizard started pumping it as "rare" circa 1994 or so.

 

It was kinda like the "last wave" of "no one gave a about these, but we'll hype them anyway" key issues like Amazing Adventures 11, Iron Man 55, the Spectre Adventures, All Star Western 10, etc. Due to attrition and decades of collector indifference, many of these are rarer that key issues from the same era.

 

Conan was a monster hit and his first appearance was a $20 book pretty early on, and it was viewed as a key issue since day one, so naturally more HG copies survived.

 

I agree with you on all of those issues being overhyped. I still believe that a Conan 1 will be a better investment in the long run. The demand will outpace the supply for it. That's not to say that All-Star Western 10 (and Jonah Hex) will not have a larger demand, although I'm not sure why - I always thought of Jonah Hex as some minor supporting DC guy, but Marvel bronze keys will always be a better investment, I think.

[matewan1990]

My guess is that the All-Star Western had a much lower print run? I'd certainly believe that more people are searching for Conan 1 than AS-Western 10.

 

All-Star Western 10 was not a big key until well into the 1990's. Like I said, few cared about Hex' first appearance, or even worried about it until OS and Wizard started pumping it as "rare" circa 1994 or so.

 

It was kinda like the "last wave" of "no one gave a about these, but we'll hype them anyway" key issues like Amazing Adventures 11, Iron Man 55, the Spectre Adventures, All Star Western 10, etc. Due to attrition and decades of collector indifference, many of these are rarer that key issues from the same era.

 

Conan was a monster hit and his first appearance was a $20 book pretty early on, and it was viewed as a key issue since day one, so naturally more HG copies survived.

 

I agree with you on all of those issues being overhyped. I still believe that a Conan 1 will be a better investment in the long run. The demand will outpace the supply for it. That's not to say that All-Star Western 10 (and Jonah Hex) will not have a larger demand, although I'm not sure why - I always thought of Jonah Hex as some minor supporting DC guy, but Marvel bronze keys will always be a better investment, I think.

 

Check Overstreet to see which comic is a better investment. There are far more high grade copies of Conan 1 around than there are All-Star Western 10. Conan has far more fans, but there are more than enough reprints of the early issues and even original copies sitting in boxes. The price on Conan 1-3 hasn't really gone up a whole lot in the last few years. I do think that Conan 1, if it were ever given the distinction of being THE FIRST BRONZE AGE COMIC and all the debate was settled on that issue, then it might start to see some considerable increases, just like Showcase 4 did. I, personally, don't believe Conan 1 is the first bronze age comic, because I think Giant-Size X-Men is the true first bronze age book. But, if Conan 1 ever gets the distinction of being the first, then it might see some increases. Until then, I think there are too many of these floating around to ever see it jump in price to be a better investment than All-Star Western 10. Give me a high-grade copy of ASW 10 or Conan 1 and I'll take the ASW 10 every time.

Jonah Hex's fan base is so much larger than what people think. And, I do think Jonah Hex paved the way for characters like the Punisher. Jonah Hex was killing the bad guys when Marvel's western heroes were still shooting the guns out of their hands and turning them over to the law. Conan is the star of his book, but I don't think he's truly a hero. He's out for himself and doesn't care who gets in his way. Jonah Hex may be a bounty hunter, but he does the right thing, even when he doesn't get paid, plus, he kills the bad guys, which is something Spider-Man, Superman, Batman and Captain America doesn't do. I think JH is definitely the first anti-hero in comics and he paved the way for every other anti-hero after him.

[Psiknight]

My guess is that the All-Star Western had a much lower print run? I'd certainly believe that more people are searching for Conan 1 than AS-Western 10.

 

All-Star Western 10 was not a big key until well into the 1990's. Like I said, few cared about Hex' first appearance, or even worried about it until OS and Wizard started pumping it as "rare" circa 1994 or so.

 

It was kinda like the "last wave" of "no one gave a about these, but we'll hype them anyway" key issues like Amazing Adventures 11, Iron Man 55, the Spectre Adventures, All Star Western 10, etc. Due to attrition and decades of collector indifference, many of these are rarer that key issues from the same era.

 

Conan was a monster hit and his first appearance was a $20 book pretty early on, and it was viewed as a key issue since day one, so naturally more HG copies survived.

 

I agree with you on all of those issues being overhyped. I still believe that a Conan 1 will be a better investment in the long run. The demand will outpace the supply for it. That's not to say that All-Star Western 10 (and Jonah Hex) will not have a larger demand, although I'm not sure why - I always thought of Jonah Hex as some minor supporting DC guy, but Marvel bronze keys will always be a better investment, I think.

 

Check Overstreet to see which comic is a better investment. There are far more high grade copies of Conan 1 around than there are All-Star Western 10. Conan has far more fans, but there are more than enough reprints of the early issues and even original copies sitting in boxes. The price on Conan 1-3 hasn't really gone up a whole lot in the last few years. I do think that Conan 1, if it were ever given the distinction of being THE FIRST BRONZE AGE COMIC and all the debate was settled on that issue, then it might start to see some considerable increases, just like Showcase 4 did. I, personally, don't believe Conan 1 is the first bronze age comic, because I think Giant-Size X-Men is the true first bronze age book. But, if Conan 1 ever gets the distinction of being the first, then it might see some increases. Until then, I think there are too many of these floating around to ever see it jump in price to be a better investment than All-Star Western 10. Give me a high-grade copy of ASW 10 or Conan 1 and I'll take the ASW 10 every time.

Jonah Hex's fan base is so much larger than what people think. And, I do think Jonah Hex paved the way for characters like the Punisher. Jonah Hex was killing the bad guys when Marvel's western heroes were still shooting the guns out of their hands and turning them over to the law. Conan is the star of his book, but I don't think he's truly a hero. He's out for himself and doesn't care who gets in his way. Jonah Hex may be a bounty hunter, but he does the right thing, even when he doesn't get paid, plus, he kills the bad guys, which is something Spider-Man, Superman, Batman and Captain America doesn't do. I think JH is definitely the first anti-hero in comics and he paved the way for every other anti-hero after him.

 

Check which Overstreet? If I remember correctly, ASW 10, circa 1995, wasn't worth anything. Hell, I didn't even know who Jonah Hex was until he was on the Batman Animated cartoon.

 

I'm not trying to take away from Jonah Hex, at all. I'm also not a big fan of either guy, so I'm looking at this objectively. Jonah Hex is much less popular than Conan. And didn't Conan do the right thing, too? From the few issues I've read, he wasn't just a ruthless barbarian that murdered, raped, and pillaged his way through 32 pages of comic. He was often saving the day.

 

I don't even know what the print run on a book like ASW 10 would have been. But I can almost guarantee you that there are far more copies out there than you might think.

 

Clearly, you are biased in favor of Jonah Hex, which is fine, but it's hard to take your post as anything more than a subjective opinion.

[Zonker]

I, personally, don't believe Conan 1 is the first bronze age comic, because I think Giant-Size X-Men is the true first bronze age book.

And, I do think Jonah Hex paved the way for characters like the Punisher.

I think JH is definitely the first anti-hero in comics and he paved the way for every other anti-hero after him.

 

 

<waiting for JC's arrival>

[joe_collector]

Check which Overstreet? If I remember correctly, ASW 10, circa 1995, wasn't worth anything. Hell, I didn't even know who Jonah Hex was until he was on the Batman Animated cartoon.

 

Wizard Magazine has the uncanny ability to create 20-20 hindsight.

 

Plus, to say that Hex was a "more moral and hero-like" character than Conan is pretty bizarre, as the Cimmerian was always getting into trouble because he "wanted to do the right thing", rather than just pillage and get the heck out of there. That was his whole allure, he wasn't just an evil barbarian killing everything he saw - the big guy rescued the princess/saved the kingdom/joined the underdog when it was the right thing to do (and taking some bounty was usually part of the game).

 

And neither character was the "first anti-hero in comics" (they go much further back), but it was the incredible popularity of Conan that helped drive the movement. Hex was a low-selling fringe player with very little real collector value until Wizard hyped up the comic as "rare - so in the 70's, he influenced jack .

[seank]

Although I'm a big Jonah Hex fan, I'd have to say Conan was the first Bronze Age anti-hero. Although we argue about it all the time, I think conensus on this board is that Conan 1 ushered Marvel into the Bronze age and Green Lantern 76 was DC's entrance. Both are great and significant books.

 

As for Conan 1 v. All-Star Western 1, ASW is probably a more significant book in higher grade. Conan was collected more in the 70s. Compare 121 Conan 1 9.4s to 13 ASW 10s in 9.4. Lower grade, both are easy to find. I see ASW 10s at every convention in mid-grade.

 

As for the characters being derivative, looking for originality in comics is like looking for fish in the desert. Even Batman was derived from pulp and serial heros.

 

That said, Jonah Hex is and was a great book. Joe, I'd recommend you BUY an issue or two (or steal them or read them at the newstand or however you keep up on moderns and still keep your wallet intact). I was a JH reader in the 1980s and I remember it being of consistently high quality when most of the superhero books were turning to .

[HouseofComics.Com]

As for the characters being derivative, looking for originality in comics is like looking for fish in the desert. Even Batman was derived from pulp and serial heros.

 

A great comment that needs to be repeated around here from time to time. (Are you going to Super-Con on the 20th btw?)

 

I definitely understand Matewan's reasoning on the All-Star Western's HG scarcity. Obviously much scarcer than early Conans. I mean, it is a 52-pager (a format that finished off DC as the sales leader) and a genre that was petering out, and an anthology with no strong lead character. f course that's why it currently guides for over twice the Conan!

 

It's almost ironic to have people arguing Conan and Jonah Hex when there's such crossover appeal between the two of them and considering that by the 1970s non-superhero fans had so little to choose from compared to say the 1950s...

 

Marc

[Timulty]

Hey, that's what is needed a Jonah Hex/Conan crossover mini. Now, that would be painful to see. I keep hearing how "Killing the Bad Guys" seems to be a criteria for an anti-hero. Golden Age comics had that happen all the time. What's worse they would "Kill the Bad Guys" and make some witty remark like "He's not getting up again, hehehe. " etc. The criteria here should be that the character must not be a good guy to start with. Jonah and Conan both fit this mold to an extent. Though with Jonah, I always get the sense that he would shoot a man for looking at him crosswise(must be that big honkin scar on his face that make him so insecure. ) I haven't read much, if any Conan so I am probably not the best judge for that on.

[Psiknight]

To be fair, I should probably read some Jonah Hex. I mean he was cool in the Batman: TAS...

[matewan1990]

Check which Overstreet? If I remember correctly, ASW 10, circa 1995, wasn't worth anything. Hell, I didn't even know who Jonah Hex was until he was on the Batman Animated cartoon.

 

Wizard Magazine has the uncanny ability to create 20-20 hindsight.

 

Plus, to say that Hex was a "more moral and hero-like" character than Conan is pretty bizarre, as the Cimmerian was always getting into trouble because he "wanted to do the right thing", rather than just pillage and get the heck out of there. That was his whole allure, he wasn't just an evil barbarian killing everything he saw - the big guy rescued the princess/saved the kingdom/joined the underdog when it was the right thing to do (and taking some bounty was usually part of the game).

 

And neither character was the "first anti-hero in comics" (they go much further back), but it was the incredible popularity of Conan that helped drive the movement. Hex was a low-selling fringe player with very little real collector value until Wizard hyped up the comic as "rare - so in the 70's, he influenced jack .

 

Actually, if you knew your comics history and read more than just Wizard, you'd know that it was Indiana Bronze Age dealer Tony Starks in his Comic Book Marketplace columns back in the early 1990s that said the first appearance of Jonah Hex was a major key that people should try to find because it would go up in value. I think he had it in his 25 for $25 column. I do not remember Wizard ever hyping All-Star Western 10 and I've been reading the magazine since issue 1.

I can remember when I was buying from CBG in the early 1990s, I scoured every single ad and classified to find a copy of ASW 10. I found only two VG copies in two years, but I found countless copies of Conan 1 in high grade for what I was paying for VG copies of ASW 10. It's gone up in value every single year. Conan No. 1 STILL hovers at around $300. I'd say ASW 10 had a much lower print run than the high-profile Conan 1. I'm almost sure of it. This was a comic that wasn't selling too well, thus the thought that if Hex didn't work, then nothing was hurt because of his appearances.

I honestly don't think anyone thought of Conan when they created the Punisher. That character is more closely related to the gun-slinging of Jonah Hex and Mack Bolan's Executioner. Jonah Hex was based on the spaghetti westerns that Clint Eastwood was starring in, so I was told by JH creators John Albano and Tony DeZuniga. They both said that then-DC publisher Carmine Infantino wanted a new western hero and John was inspired by Eastwood's characters and so was DeZuniga when he drew him. If you want to know how much of an influence the spaghetti westerns had on JH, just check out ASW 10's cameo appearance by Lee Marvin, who was, at the time, one DeZuniga's favorite western actors.

And why is my opinion not valid? You guys are all pushing Conan as the first anti-hero in comics. I took your opinion and added my own. I never said you were wrong. I simply gave you my opinion and you call me biased. I love Conan. I liked Conan a long time before I ever read my first Jonah Hex. But, I believe the first anti-hero to be Jonah Hex.

Marvel's westerns read like a four-color super-hero comic. The good guy stopped the bad guy and the villain was carted off to jail for rehabilitation. In the Jonah Hex strip, Hex simply shot the bad guys dead, saving the state a lot of money for jail costs and putting an end to the bad guy's villainous ways. Much like what the Punisher did.

Mike B.

[matewan1990]

Jonah Hex kept its high quality throughout the entire run, even when Conan was lagging with bad art and lackluster stories. There toward the end and those miniseries from Marvel, Conan was pretty bad. Marvel almost appeared to have something against the licensed properties. They put lesser writers and artists on the titles, instead of using their best people to do great work on the books.

GI Joe suffered from bad art throughout its entire run, as did Transformers and Star Wars got bad toward the end. When Conan was drawn by John Buscema and Ernie Chan, it maintained its high level of storytelling. But, as those artists left, Marvel replaced them with second-rate pencillers and inkers and the book and sales suffered because of it.

Jonah Hex had top talent on the book until the end and then had great talent on the futuristic Hex book and has had nothing but the best artists working on it during three miniseries from Vertigo and the current ongoing series. I honestly can't remember a book that maintained such a high level of quality from the first appearance to present. Michael Fleisher wrote some darn good stories, too.

Mike B.

[Rocketeer]

..The Creeper debuted in March 1968....two years before Conan,...and certainly an anti-hero,...

[joe_collector]

you'd know that it was Indiana Bronze Age dealer Tony Starks in his Comic Book Marketplace columns back in the early 1990s that said the first appearance of Jonah Hex was a major key that people should try to find because it would go up in value.

 

I looked it up, and although Wizard did cover it a few times, it was actually that Wizard-like 1990's Overstreet Monthly "speculator rag" that was the true hype-machine. There were a few dealers actively promoting this book, and it appeared in a few BA articles.

 

It's not that I dislike Hex, and I have read more than a few issues, it's that your bizarre logic is giving me a headache. On one hand, you acknowledge the early 90's as the FIRST true dealer-driven collector spike in Jonah Hex, then on the other, state that somehow that makes him more important than Conan during the BA, a character who was (and still is) widly popular since his comic book introduction.

 

I mean, how could Hex be this incredibly popular, genre-defining, BA-starting juggernaut when no one even cared about his first appearance (in an anthology no less), even enough to get it a premium in OS? Sure, due to attrition, low sales, no one caring about Hex, etc. the book has some value in HG now, but isn't that to be expected in the CGC Census Age?

 

Conan was more popular, hence more people bought, collected and saved his books. Jonah Hex was the total opposite, and remained so for decades, hence the lower HG population.

 

Jonah Hex was not even on the map during the 70's, and any kind of "the chracter was so incredibly influential and popular during the early-BA" is just 20-20 hindsight and not reality. Comic creators emulated successful (critical or commercial) books and characters, not vice versa.

 

If you want a DC influence on the BA anti-hero movement, I'd definitely look at Manhunter instead.

[joe_collector]

..The Creeper debuted in March 1968....two years before Conan,...and certainly an anti-hero,...

 

Hey, you're preaching to the choir here, and as I stated earlier, comic book anti-heroes go way back, to the GA at least.

 

In a mainstream sense, Batman was probably one of the first, and his GA exploits resulted in a great many criminal fatalities, along with some other bone-crunching injuries. He was also a revenge-driven character who took out his fury on the criminal element, much like someone like The Punisher (and many others - it's a common anti-hero trait), who also was driven by the death of his family.

[tth2]

I honestly don't think anyone thought of Conan when they created the Punisher. That character is more closely related to the gun-slinging of Jonah Hex and Mack Bolan's Executioner.

I doubt Jonah Hex figured into it at all. And there`s no "closely related" to it. Punisher was a blatant, 100% direct rip-off of the Executioner.

[tth2]

I mean, how could Hex be this incredibly popular, genre-defining, BA-starting juggernaut when no one even cared about his first appearance (in an anthology no less), even enough to get it a premium in OS? Sure, due to attrition, low sales, no one caring about Hex, etc. the book has some value in HG now, but isn't that to be expected in the CGC Census Age?

JC, I actually agree with you. While Jonah Hex may have been ground-breaking, he had absolutely no influence on anything. However, once his first appearance broke out and people realized how hard it was to find in HG, it was worth quite a lot, even pre-CGC.

[Psiknight]

I thought it was obvious we were talking about the first Bronze Age anti-hero...

 

Batman was the first anti-hero that I can think of, even though that changed significantly during the 1940s through the mid-to-late 1960s.

[jbud73]

Well well well what do we have here, an interesting discussion about comicdom history. I LIKE IT

 

My 2 cents.

 

Bunch of related topics in this thread - the rarity factor of ASW 10 and Conan 1 (happen to agree with JC here about the revisionist history).

 

Ok well what is an anti-hero and how does that play into the significance of Conan 1 and ASW 10? Again in my opinion its much more subtle than the creators of Hex and Conan wanting to create an anti-hero. I think Roy and Barry smith were trying to push the envelope, seeing what they could get by the CCA, trying to stay true to REH's vision, written in a time where censorship in pulp publications was not anywhere near what they were faced with.

 

ASW 10 and Hex are a progression of DC trying the same thing, stemming from the initiatives taken in the GL/GA series and influenced by the Spaghetti westerns.

 

Each charater has elements of Anti-hero, but different elements. IMO Conan is closer the "heroric" end of the spectrum, sure he kills but there is still a lot of Flynn and Samurai in him. Hex on the other hand has the brooding demeanor of the loner, but does this equate to more anti-hero, if he is then less heroic?

 

I dunno. I will say I always considered Conan more like Wolvie and Hex more like Punny. Both are early BA interpretations of what would be a revivalist populism of the anti-hero. In the end Conan came first, but I don't think he was the complete Anti-Hero, certainly the step from Conan to Punisher seems a bit of a leap - there were others inbetween.

[tth2]

I thought it was obvious we were talking about the first Bronze Age anti-hero...

The conversation kind of mutated along the way.

 

Batman was the first anti-hero that I can think of, even though that changed significantly during the 1940s through the mid-to-late 1960s.

As Timulty pointed out, there were plenty of anti-heroes in the GA, in the sense of heroes that killed their opponents. So in this sense, the anti-hero is nothing new, but was a sort of new development in the post-Code comic world.

 

I`ve never even really thought of Conan as a real anti-hero. Sure, he killed people and was out for number 1, but there was generally a sense of nobility and decency to him, even in the REH books, and I often had the impression that he ended up doing the right thing, if not always for the right reasons. I`ve always thought the first true anti-hero in the sword & sorcery world was Michael Moorcock`s Elric, who was at best a morally ambivalent and sometimes downright evil lead character. I know Roy Thomas was heavily influenced by the Elric books.

[joe_collector]

I doubt Jonah Hex figured into it at all. And there`s no "closely related" to it. Punisher was a blatant, 100% direct rip-off of the Executioner.

 

Sure, and when people say that Conan lead to Wolverine/Punisher, this does NOT mean that the characters are interchangeable, but that without Conan, it is highly unlikely that Marvel would have taken that leap towards more anti-heroes.

 

Conan basically proved that "you don't have to be a Boy Scout to sell comics" and his incredible popularity allowed Marvel to experiment with other "morally-ambiguous" anti-hero characters like Wolverine, Deathlok, and Punisher, among many others. These characters definitely shared some traits, but it was more that Conan's success helped give birth to these BA stars. Remember, creators try to copy success, not failure.

 

Conan is also an interesting "starting point" as not only does he evoke the anti-hero sentiment that was so prevalent in the BA, but also helped usher in the horror/monster and sword & sorcery Marvel genres as well.

 

Also, check out the sheer number of "In the Tradition of Conan" (or similar) cover blurbs and advertisements, then compare those to the same type of "In the Tradtion of Jonah Hex" ones from the same era.