Larson Copy of Marvel Comics #1 on Heritage

[sborock]

This is a mistake.

 

The book was supposed to go out in a blue label. I never changed the catagory field from Restored SA to Universal.

 

When the restoration detection expert finds ANYTHING added to a book during the grading process, he puts restored in the catagory and notes of what was done in the "grading text" feild and in the internal notes. When a finalizer gets to the book, the pre-graders have in their notes if they think it should be Universal or not. If the finalizer ( this time myself ) thinks so also, he then discusses it with the restoration detection expert and the senior graders to make the final decision. I never moved the catagory to Universal from Restored SA and the book went out in a Purple Label instead of blue. The glue present on this book is very minor. If we felt it had too much glue, it will always state in the "grading text" on the label: "Restoration includes" in front of the stated work done to the book.

 

We are contacting Heritage to let them know, as we would never want the consigner to take a loss because of a mistake we made.

[esquirecomics]

This is a mistake.

 

The book was supposed to go out in a blue label. I never changed the catagory field from Restored SA to Universal.

 

When the restoration detection expert finds ANYTHING added to a book during the grading process, he puts restored in the catagory and notes of what was done in the "grading text" feild and in the internal notes. When a finalizer gets to the book, the pre-graders have in their notes if they think it should be Universal or not. If the finalizer ( this time myself ) thinks so also, he then discusses it with the restoration detection expert and the senior graders to make the final decision. I never moved the catagory to Universal from Restored SA and the book went out in a Purple Label instead of blue. The glue present on this book is very minor. If we felt it had too much glue, it will always state in the "grading text" on the label: "Restoration includes" in front of the stated work done to the book.

 

We are contacting Heritage to let them know, as we would never want the consigner to take a loss because of a mistake we made.

 

That is one BIG mistake.

 

Good thing for the people on these boards otherwise the error probably would not have been highlighted.

[october]

Here's what it used to look like.

 

That's depressing.

 

Not really as it just depends on why you brought the books in the first place.

 

If I remember correctly, his entire purpose for buying these GA keys were to put them on public display as part of a travelling road show. His objective was not to store them away in some heat and light sensitive safety deposit box and wait for them to go up in value.

 

Looks like he was able to achieve what he wanted when he purchased the books. I certainly wouldn't have done the same, but to each their own.

 

The damage done here was irresponsible and totally avoidable. I think that someone who owns a unique cultural artifact has a duty to protect it to the best of their abilities. The laws of some states even recognize this, as they are become more and more hostile to an individual's "right" to destroy their own valuable property. Does this situation rise to the level of a guy setting fire to a Rembrandt? Of course not, but it's always a shame when irreparable damage is done to a one of a kind object. I am of the mind that the people who possess truly rare or unique comics are more like caretakers than owners.

[Silver Surfer]

Maybe if it wasn't such a recognizable pedigree it would do better with the glue removed. Most people would know the Larson had a PLOD at one time, and now it was blue. That stigma could mitigate the upward mobility of the book's price.

 

Agreed but if the glue is minor indeed and details of how the glue was removed and from where, perhaps it would minimize the stigma on this book?

[Silver Surfer]

This is a mistake.

 

The book was supposed to go out in a blue label. I never changed the catagory field from Restored SA to Universal.

 

When the restoration detection expert finds ANYTHING added to a book during the grading process, he puts restored in the catagory and notes of what was done in the "grading text" feild and in the internal notes. When a finalizer gets to the book, the pre-graders have in their notes if they think it should be Universal or not. If the finalizer ( this time myself ) thinks so also, he then discusses it with the restoration detection expert and the senior graders to make the final decision. I never moved the catagory to Universal from Restored SA and the book went out in a Purple Label instead of blue. The glue present on this book is very minor. If we felt it had too much glue, it will always state in the "grading text" on the label: "Restoration includes" in front of the stated work done to the book.

 

We are contacting Heritage to let them know, as we would never want the consigner to take a loss because of a mistake we made.

 

Hey just saw your post Steve. Sorry it wasn't my intent to point out any mistakes just commenting on its value in a blue label.

[bluechip]

While I must applaud the email owning up to the grading "mistake" I must point out what I would hope to be obvious. That this underscores how completely

batsh--t INSANE the restoration debate has become. Here we are with a book that has great collectibility and should go for a huge amount of money, and large defects (like fading and writing) did not prevent the book from acquiring low grade status. Yet much lesser defects would have been considered death to its value if they had been acquired with the intent of making the book appear better. And we have one defect (glue) that is, by all accounts, even the graders, a very TINY defect, yet it caused a huge debate and lots of concern over whether it should or should not be in a blue or a purple label. The defect is the same in either case, yet people got all in twist over whether it would or should end up with a purple lable or not.

 

I am all for disclosure of each and every defect, including any attempt at restoration. But I am also for RATIONAL thinking. And these sort of incidents indicate the restoration debate has become much less than completely rational.

 

Yes, people deceived buyers in the past with books that had giant amounts of color touch and even recreated chunks of artwork. But not long ago the overstreet guide itself directly ADVISED people to get books restored "to improve their appearance," and many people took that advice -- and the general approval o disclosed restoration withing the hobby -- and had slight work done with the best of intentions. And they have been made to lose great sums of money because some have gone very very far out of their way to reverse that with the express intent of making those books lose their value and make those honest people lose that money. Collectors out there can easily rattle off celebrities and other wealthy individuals who bought books at or about guide and then had to sell at break even or loss amouts because of the vitriolic changes in the hobby and I can assure you there are famous former collectors who are PISSED and not saying good things to their famous and wealthy friends who consider buying comics as an investment.

[showcase4]

a very TINY defect, yet it caused a huge debate and lots of concern over whether it should or should not be in a blue or a purple label. The defect is the same in either case, yet people got all in twist over whether it would or should end up with a purple lable or not.

 

 

We are in a "blue" or "purple" market, and in this market, label color is more important than the defect causing the label color. When you have a high dollar book like Marvel #1, NO serious potential buyer is not going to 1st and foremost look for blue or purple...it comes before even seeing the book itself. With an unrestored book worth more than 5X a similar restored book, label color is the 1st important thing, then the grade, then the book itself ( at least for a comic in this price range ). Yes...I am saying the book comes LAST .......

 

most important in order:

1. blue or purple?

2. grade?

3. what book is it?

[Aman619]

displaying the book was fine. But theres a smart way, and a dumb way. He could have protected color loss AND shown it off, couldnt he?

Maybe it just wasn't important to him. It only seems like a big deal to us because we have a benchmark to reference it against. Who knows, if you could take a time machine to when the Mona Lisa was first painted, maybe you would realize that what we see today is a horribly faded version, or maybe a horribly dingy version, resulting from many hundreds of years of being publicly displayed. But we don't recoil in horror because what we have is all we know, and it would've been a much greater loss for the painting to not be publicly displayed. The only difference between the two is we don't have a benchmark for the Mona Lisa to realize how nice it used to look.

 

The Mona Lisa HAS changed is appearance, Its darker than it wa soriginally. There was a recent article debating a clean up job. Its on hold because it was agreed that the new (original) colors would be too different and disorienting. Same thing happenned with theSistine Chapel, and locally, Grand Central Station cieling.

 

But - - thats a differnent argument. Those happenned over centuries, and began befre preventive measure were created and widely in use. The deterioration of this one comics cover colors is only in the past 15 years and would have been preventable had the owner cared to take simple steps, like UV protective glass.

 

Im not hurt or affected by the results, I merely point out it was more negligence than the ravages of time!

[Aman619]

Wow.Even the Larson does not have that rich blue cover.

 

 

....and the reason being it the first guy who bought this and other GA keys at the first Sothebys auction allowed the book to be displayed in full daylight and sun.....He was not a comic book guy....the book faded....

 

This is pretty suprising to me...the "non comic book guy" who bought this book had a considerable investment in it, and assuming he was at the auction, would have seen all the hype and heard the description of the books importance read by the auctioneer. Even if he knew squat about comics, he knew this book was old and made of delicate paper...you would think he would check with someone knowledgable about proper storage and display methods to at least protect his investment, much less the integrity of the book.

 

This is like me buying a rare, old, expensive Indian head penny at a coin auction, and rubbing it with a pencil eraser to make it shine!

 

or - - -buying an autographed Babe Ruth ball and playing a pick up game in the street with it!

[esquirecomics]

I am all for disclosure of each and every defect, including any attempt at restoration. But I am also for RATIONAL thinking. And these sort of incidents indicate the restoration debate has become much less than completely rational.

 

[bluechip]

Re:

 

most important in order:

1. blue or purple?

2. grade?

3. what book is it?

 

 

Hilarious.

 

But perhaps there should be a few more steps in between?

 

 

most important in order:

1. blue or purple?

2. grade?

3 pedigree?

4 "variant"?

5 spanking panels?

6 what book is it?

 

3. what book is it?

[showcase4]

Re:

 

most important in order:

1. blue or purple?

2. grade?

3. what book is it?

 

 

Hilarious.

 

But perhaps there should be a few more steps in between?

 

 

most important in order:

1. blue or purple?

2. grade?

3 pedigree?

4 "variant"?

5 spanking panels?

6 what book is it?

 

3. what book is it?

 

.....actually, this was not meant to be a joke. For the big time investors I know. (like the ones that could afford this Marvel #1)..their 1st concerns are unrestored and grade....the book really does come after that. Imagine that I'm offering you a book that you haven't seen / and don't know what it is........... and you are a high roller, and I'm known for selling high dollar keys - we are on the phone. If I start by saying " I have a restored Fair 1.0" you will cut me off and say "no need to continue". Same roll playing, and I start by saying " I have an unrestored VF+ 8.5 "....not only would you not be cutting me off, you would most likely be hanging on my every word until I tell you what book it is..........

[metropoliscomics]

Jerry Ross told me that he put bits and dabs of glue on the Larson Marvel 1-9.

 

Stephen

[Apotheosis]

.....actually, this was not meant to be a joke. For the big time investors I know. (like the ones that could afford this Marvel #1)..their 1st concerns are unrestored and grade....the book really does come after that. Imagine that I'm offering you a book that you haven't seen / and don't know what it is........... and you are a high roller, and I'm known for selling high dollar keys - we are on the phone. If I start by saying " I have a restored Fair 1.0" you will cut me off and say "no need to continue". Same roll playing, and I start by saying " I have an unrestored VF+ 8.5 "....not only would you not be cutting me off, you would most likely be hanging on my every word until I tell you what book it is..........

 

While I don't disagree with your scenario's I do think they're a bit unfair. Of course leading off with "I have a restored Fair 1.0" is going to stop people dead. Many collectors have levels they won't go below due to aesthetic reasons. In my world the only book I would consider in restored Fair 1.0 is an Action Comics #1 just due to the rarity and desire for the book. No other book ranks in there. Starting off with "unrestored VF+ 8.5" will hold the attention because almost every collector with money would allow that grade in their collection... especially GA collectors that realize the 8.5 can often be a top grade.

 

I personally would prefer that you tell me the title first because my collecting habits aren't the norm, but I'm not going to cut you off in the middle of the grade and tell you to get to the point either.

[bluechip]

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

.....actually, this was not meant to be a joke. For the big time investors I know. (like the ones that could afford this Marvel #1)..their 1st concerns are unrestored and grade....the book really does come after that. Imagine that I'm offering you a book that you haven't seen / and don't know what it is........... and you are a high roller, and I'm known for selling high dollar keys - we are on the phone. If I start by saying " I have a restored Fair 1.0" you will cut me off and say "no need to continue". Same roll playing, and I start by saying " I have an unrestored VF+ 8.5 "....not only would you not be cutting me off, you would most likely be hanging on my every word until I tell you what book it is..........

 

 

When you're talking about "big time investors" I presume you mean people who already have copies of Action 1, Marvel 1, etc. and they're at the point where they're upgrading or filling holes in a fairly (or even very) extensive collection.

 

If any such "big time investor" however has no copy whatsoever of Action 1 and instread of getting a low grade or restored copy prefers to spend as much if not more on high grade copies of things the average person never heard of, then I'd say that money is chasing the wrong investments.

 

Just as an exervise, take that prurity list and apply it to just about anything else, and it will seem less than sensible. Collect first edition books? Sure... but forget that first edition faulkner. I prefer a high grade unrestored copy of something else, anything else. Collect cars? Don't bother calling me about a restored bugatti. I want that mint condition corolla. Collect fine art? Don't insult me with calls about the Mona Lisa. I heard that's restored. let me know when you've got an unrestored high grade piece..

 

On the other hand, one advantage of collecting high grade unrestpred comics is that there are plenty to go around, so long as you care more about condition than content. Hel, there's more than 20,000 mile high books, and tens of thousands of other pedigree golden age, whith more being discovered and certified all the time. And if you don't mind collecting silver age, there's more high grade unrestoreds than you could even count. And if you don't mind modern stuff (and apparently many people don't mind) you've got a limitless supply of unrestored high grade special editions and variants and signature series books. As I understand it, they're manufacturing more even as we speak.

 

Compare that to a hundred or so copies of golden age keys, and you can see why many :"advisors" tell people to steer clear of bad investments like a Marvel 1 that has a dot of glue on it.

 

If you don't advise people to steer clear of restored books, they might get the silly notion that content and cultural significance is more important. Then they'll all be chasing the too-few copies of action 1 and passing up those warehouses full of unrestored high grade gems.

[showcase4]

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

.....actually, this was not meant to be a joke. For the big time investors I know. (like the ones that could afford this Marvel #1)..their 1st concerns are unrestored and grade....the book really does come after that. Imagine that I'm offering you a book that you haven't seen / and don't know what it is........... and you are a high roller, and I'm known for selling high dollar keys - we are on the phone. If I start by saying " I have a restored Fair 1.0" you will cut me off and say "no need to continue". Same roll playing, and I start by saying " I have an unrestored VF+ 8.5 "....not only would you not be cutting me off, you would most likely be hanging on my every word until I tell you what book it is..........

 

 

When you're talking about "big time investors" I presume you mean people who already have copies of Action 1, Marvel 1, etc. and they're at the point where they're upgrading or filling holes in a fairly (or even very) extensive collection.

 

If any such "big time investor" however has no copy whatsoever of Action 1 and instread of getting a low grade or restored copy prefers to spend as much if not more on high grade copies of things the average person never heard of, then I'd say that money is chasing the wrong investments.

 

Just as an exervise, take that prurity list and apply it to just about anything else, and it will seem less than sensible. Collect first edition books? Sure... but forget that first edition faulkner. I prefer a high grade unrestored copy of something else, anything else. Collect cars? Don't bother calling me about a restored bugatti. I want that mint condition corolla. Collect fine art? Don't insult me with calls about the Mona Lisa. I heard that's restored. let me know when you've got an unrestored high grade piece..

 

On the other hand, one advantage of collecting high grade unrestpred comics is that there are plenty to go around, so long as you care more about condition than content. Hel, there's more than 20,000 mile high books, and tens of thousands of other pedigree golden age, whith more being discovered and certified all the time. And if you don't mind collecting silver age, there's more high grade unrestoreds than you could even count. And if you don't mind modern stuff (and apparently many people don't mind) you've got a limitless supply of unrestored high grade special editions and variants and signature series books. As I understand it, they're manufacturing more even as we speak.

 

Compare that to a hundred or so copies of golden age keys, and you can see why many :"advisors" tell people to steer clear of bad investments like a Marvel 1 that has a dot of glue on it.

 

If you don't advise people to steer clear of restored books, they might get the silly notion that content and cultural significance is more important. Then they'll all be chasing the too-few copies of action 1 and passing up those warehouses full of unrestored high grade gems.

 

BlueChip...WELCOME TO THE BOARDS! You may have only posted a few times, but you obviously know your stuff, and are an experienced collector. This was a VERY good post

[Apotheosis]

Is everything one extreme or the other for you?

 

I will say the car reference was funny to me... You make it seem as though restoration on a car doesn't mean anything. If you actually kept up with the collectible car market you would find that unrestored cars that are in nice condition sell for more than a restored example. It's not a huge difference like there is in the comic world, but the fact remains that if there is a chance to own an untouched example of anything people are going to pay more then they would for something that has had work done.

 

I believe that the restoration stigma is over the top with comics. There shouldn't be that big of a difference in cost when something has a small amount of color touch. On that we can probably agree. I just think that the price difference occurs because people know that there is an unrestored example out there and that's what they want. Me... I'll take the restored copy all day long if it makes something affordable that I couldn't normally obtain.

[Apotheosis]

On the other hand, one advantage of collecting high grade unrestpred comics is that there are plenty to go around, so long as you care more about condition than content. Hel, there's more than 20,000 mile high books, and tens of thousands of other pedigree golden age, whith more being discovered and certified all the time.

 

That is a great explanation as to why people will pass on restored. There are copies available. If you don't like restored why buy it? There's another one behind it you can get.

 

Once again... we're not talking one of a kinds... we're talking about things where multiple copies exist. A good example of this is over in the OA threads. People over there buy OA all the time that has yellowing and the like because if they don't they may never see that cover again. One copy means condition and restoration go out the window. Multiple copies means you can be picky if you want to be.

[bluechip]

<<<<

That is a great explanation as to why people will pass on restored. There are copies available. If you don't like restored why buy it? There's another one behind it you can get.>>>>>

 

No question that dynamic applies (or should apply) to silver age restored in a big way. Hardly any of those got thrown out. And it applies somewhat to most golden age, too. Even a few of the highly desirable books like Batman 1 seem to have quite a few restored copies out there, accounting for low selling prices (considering how significanty and just dam cool the book is, it's amazing you can still buy a decvent copy for less than 10K). Could be that kids just liked the issue so much it was one of the very first they held onto in significant numbers.

 

No question restored is always better than unrestored. Even in classic cars (which, by the way, has a tiered system that takes into account how much was done, whether parts have been replaced with originals or new, etc.) What gets silly is the notion that something being unrestored is more important than what it is. And what gets sillier still is that people get so picky about condition they have say, 10K to invest but rather than buy a restored Batman 1, they choose to own a book they'd never heard of until somebody told them high grade unrestored was the only way to go.

[Apotheosis]

What gets silly is the notion that something being unrestored is more important than what it is. And what gets sillier still is that people get so picky about condition they have say, 10K to invest but rather than buy a restored Batman 1, they choose to own a book they'd never heard of until somebody told them high grade unrestored was the only way to go.

 

I agree, but what you're talking about is investors not collectors. Honestly I'm ok with investors being *spoon*. Most of us are in this hobby for the love the comics. Investors make it so that some of our cherished books are out of reach because they spend stupid money on them. If they take a bath on the resale of an item then it's on them. They didn't do the research in the first place and are now paying for it.

 

True collectors I think have a different response to your scenario above. For example... just a few days ago you could have picked up Wings Comics #1 unrestored 9.4 Denver copy for $10k off Metro's site or you could have bought the Dentists copy of Batman #1 in VG for $8500. The vast majority of collectors would have picked up the Batman (I'm a Wings fan so it would be tought for me). An investor would pick up the Wings. Difference... Collectors = smart (sometimes) Investors = *spoon* (most of the time).

 

-=-=-=-=- ok... what is up with *spoon*? You can't say i.d.i.o.t or m.o.r.o.n anymore? Lame-=-=-=-=