Larson Copy of Marvel Comics #1 on Heritage

[jkrk]

This is a mistake.

 

The book was supposed to go out in a blue label. I never changed the catagory field from Restored SA to Universal.

 

When the restoration detection expert finds ANYTHING added to a book during the grading process, he puts restored in the catagory and notes of what was done in the "grading text" feild and in the internal notes. When a finalizer gets to the book, the pre-graders have in their notes if they think it should be Universal or not. If the finalizer ( this time myself ) thinks so also, he then discusses it with the restoration detection expert and the senior graders to make the final decision. I never moved the catagory to Universal from Restored SA and the book went out in a Purple Label instead of blue. The glue present on this book is very minor. If we felt it had too much glue, it will always state in the "grading text" on the label: "Restoration includes" in front of the stated work done to the book.

 

We are contacting Heritage to let them know, as we would never want the consigner to take a loss because of a mistake we made.

 

Let's see now. I'm trying to understand what happened here:

 

The MC 1, has a small amount of glue on the cover and should have received a blue label. The owner of the book (valued between 50 and 100 restored-Larson copy or 100-200 unrestored???)

 

The owner of the book:

 

a)never checked with cgc to confirm the grading ? or

b)was told it would receive a blue label and never saw the book after it was graded by CGC? or

c)Never checked the Heritage auction to see the listing?

 

The difference between the two grades might only be 100 K , so I can certainly understand why the owner might not have paid much attention to the mishap.

[bluechip]

Actually, I do buy PLODs from time to time and found that, once out of the slab they often resell for more money, even when you fully disclose the same info that was on the label. I have found it amazing and amusing that people mind less thaat something is restored than they mind that it's in a purple slab.

 

There are three problems with PLODs, however, which prevent people from paying what they feel a book might be worth.

 

1) there are people who seem to be on a mission to drive down the price of PLODs -- not just forgegoing the purchase themselves but saying often and loudly that no one else should buy them. If you know that when you buy something people are going to make a concerted effort to see you lose money on a resale, it can give you pause. I cannot say for certain what the motives behind it are but I notice many of these people own and sell high grade material (sometime brand new high grade material) and apparently want potential buyes to believe that grade is more important than conent, rarity or significance.

 

2) PLODs by nature always concern restoration and CGC's policy about labelling restoraiton is to make it as ambiguous as possible so the potential buyer has no way or knowing if "pieces added" means microscopic paper fill at the edge or whether it means somebody recreated Superman's head.

 

3) Because of #2, buyers generally have to assume a book was low grade to begin with. And the overstreet guide has for years been failing to note above guide sales of many key books in the lower grades, so buyers cannot have confidence that their own purchase prices will be reflected in the guide in future editions.

 

(in fact the gfuide has failed just as much at reporting above guide sales of books in the highest grades. Anyone who wants to offer me a near mint copy of action 1 at the price guide value, please contact me asap. Same goes for a low grade copy.

 

It's not just as simple as voting with your pocketoboojk when you have good reason to feel your vote will not be accurately counted. .

[tth2]

It's not just as simple as voting with your pocketoboojk when you have good reason to feel your vote will not be accurately counted. .

All very good points, but I'm not sure I agree with this last point. If there was concerted buying by a group of collectors, who consistently drove the price of lightly restored PLODs up for an extended period of time, I think it would get the attention of the dealers very quickly. They would raise the prices of PLODs, and in turn would go aggressively after PLODs, starting a real upward spiral.

[bluechip]

re: <<<If there was concerted buying by a group of collectors, who consistently drove the price of lightly restored PLODs up for an extended period of time, I think it would get the attention of the dealers very quickly. They would raise the prices of PLODs>>>

 

 

 

 

Probably true.

 

 

And it would help a lot if CGC would provide real details about what was done to the book. Everybody has all they need to know about the Larson copy, whether it's in a PLOD (purple label of death) or a BLOD (Blue label of divination) .

 

The info on that label is precise, accurate and complete. If the same were true of all restored labels, we would see upward price increases on restored boojks, especially those with minimal work that was accurately detailed.

[adamstrange]

Actually, I do buy PLODs from time to time and found that, once out of the slab they often resell for more money, even when you fully disclose the same info that was on the label. I have found it amazing and amusing that people mind less thaat something is restored than they mind that it's in a purple slab.

 

I'm not sure the label is the impediment so much as the slab. Once you know it's restored, the certification becomes much less informative and the slab prevents personal inspection of the book.

[adamstrange]

re: <<<If there was concerted buying by a group of collectors, who consistently drove the price of lightly restored PLODs up for an extended period of time, I think it would get the attention of the dealers very quickly. They would raise the prices of PLODs>>>

 

 

 

 

Probably true.

 

 

And it would help a lot if CGC would provide real details about what was done to the book. Everybody has all they need to know about the Larson copy, whether it's in a PLOD (purple label of death) or a BLOD (Blue label of divination) .

 

The info on that label is precise, accurate and complete. If the same were true of all restored labels, we would see upward price increases on restored boojks, especially those with minimal work that was accurately detailed.

 

I did not state this explicitly in my reply but this why I made the comment about the slab being the impediment. A solid VF copy with a color touch or piece of tape removed will sell for more than a VG copy improved to a VF.

[Apotheosis]

 

Who exactly are these people? Are they known people or are they the men in black?

[esquirecomics]

Thanks,. I think your network of disclosure concept is a great idea because ultimately it not only encourages honesty, but rationalality. YES, disclose it has a tiny dot of color touch or glue. And, at the same time, understand it doesn't mean all that much.

 

Which is why like minded individuals should join. Strength in numbers. If the NOD is going to have an impact, we need the membership support.

[Aman619]

That was questionable enough, but now we have the same sort of "flexible" rules -- giving higher grades to books owned by big dealers/collectors than virtually identical books owned by people with less pull -- going on with slabbed books. You can compare them directly side by side (or scan by scan) and see plenty of evidence to lead a reasonable person to conclude that, at worst, it's rigged to favor bigger clients.

 

And even the very best and most generous assessment labels the system horribly inconsistent.

 

I dont think I disagree with you, in general. But on this point at least I think its circumstantial. I dont think the BSD collectors get the "pass" on borderline PLOD mega-key Pedigree copies, but rather it is the BOOKS themselves that get over. They pass regardless of who owns them because they are the MH or Larsen copy, not because B.S.D. Collector owns it.

[bluechip]

 

<<<<Who exactly are these people? Are they known people or are they the men in black? >>>>

 

 

Seems like more than a few people on this very board who get downright upset when they read somebody say they don't mind if a book is restored.

 

I suppose they could be the men in black, hoping to drive down prices of all other books so that prices could rise on high grade copies of (what else?) "Men in Black."

[adamstrange]

<<<<Who exactly are these people? Are they known people or are they the men in black? >>>>

 

 

Seems like more than a few people on this very board who get downright upset when they read somebody say they don't mind if a book is restored.

 

I suppose they could be the men in black, hoping to drive down prices of all other books so that prices could rise on high grade copies of (what else?) "Men in Black."

 

I've been reading reasonably widely across the GA, SA, and General Forum for about a year and a half.

 

Within these halls, I recall far more folks making your point than the reverse -- which is why you saw tth2 push back so promptly. It's a standard reply of his to a irregularly occurring meme.

[Apotheosis]

Seems like more than a few people on this very board who get downright upset when they read somebody say they don't mind if a book is restored.

 

I may be missing it, but in 2 1/2 years on these boards I can't remember anyone getting upset because someone else didn't mind a restored book. They may voice an opinion that they wouldn't have bought it, but they don't get mad that someone else did.

 

Unless of course you are refering to the continuing arguement about undisclosed restoration/preservation. Some people don't like it and some don't mind. That arguement, however, is completely different. Most in that arguement don't fight about disclosed resto. Heck... even the leader of the NOD militia (meant in the best way of course) would agree with that (I think).

[tth2]

Can somebody trim his scans?

 

 

Please

All this scrolling left and right to read each post is driving me nuts!

[tth2]

<<<<Who exactly are these people? Are they known people or are they the men in black? >>>>

 

 

Seems like more than a few people on this very board who get downright upset when they read somebody say they don't mind if a book is restored.

 

I suppose they could be the men in black, hoping to drive down prices of all other books so that prices could rise on high grade copies of (what else?) "Men in Black."

 

I've been reading reasonably widely across the GA, SA, and General Forum for about a year and a half.

 

Within these halls, I recall far more folks making your point than the reverse -- which is why you saw tth2 push back so promptly. It's a standard reply of his to a irregularly occurring meme.

I've been here too long! There's nothing new under the sun anymore, so I no longer type in text, I just copy and paste from earlier posts!

[showcase4]

And it would help a lot if CGC would provide real details about what was done to the book. Everybody has all they need to know about the Larson copy, whether it's in a PLOD (purple label of death) or a BLOD (Blue label of divination) .

 

The info on that label is precise, accurate and complete. If the same were true of all restored labels, we would see upward price increases on restored boojks, especially those with minimal work that was accurately detailed.

 

sorry Bluechip,

You could fill up a label with 550 words, before and after pics, and a 10 year warranty on providing accurate info., and you will not see a rise in the price of restored books. You can't polish a turd. The only way restored books will start to rise in value is if collectors as a whole start to show a trend of paying more for them. I do not forsee that happening, but my crystal ball has been wrong in the past.

 

More to your point, I do no not believe the lack of restoration info on CGC labels has anything to do with market trends or market values. Additionally, I find their summary of work performed to be quite adequate. i.e. if a label denotes "pieces added", I don't believe the dimensions of the pieces themselves are neccessary for a buyer to make an informed decision. Along the same lines, if a book has a tear seal, the length of the tear would not be relevant by most or all potential buyers.

 

restored books are what they are, and I don't think CGC can put a spin on them that will suddenly boost their desirability. I think CGC has done their part by providing the label info that they presently do, and the 2 color ( 3 color if you factor in the very strange "qualified" category) labeling sytem. You can put a poodle in a skirt and paint it's nails red, but the other guests at the cocktail party are not going to be too impressed with your date...she's still a poodle

[Zonker]

Seems like more than a few people on this very board who get downright upset when they read somebody say they don't mind if a book is restored.

 

I may be missing it, but in 2 1/2 years on these boards I can't remember anyone getting upset because someone else didn't mind a restored book. They may voice an opinion that they wouldn't have bought it, but they don't get mad that someone else did.

 

 

I don't remember people actually denigrating collectors willing to buy restored, but I do remember the hugely emotional response elicited by that trial balloon to do away with the PLOD and put everything in a Universal label with a numeric Restoration level. There does seem to be a huge constituency for keeping the scarlet letter stigma attached to anything judged by CGC to be restored. In fact, there seems to be a whole generation of collectors who have a completely binary take on this-- either it is a non-restored virgin or a restored tramp. Seriously, when you read some folks waxing on about the virtues of an unsullied book surviving through the years, you'd think you were hearing from some infatuated Victorian describing his ideal fiancee. (Note the "turd" and "poodle" comments in the post right above mine).

 

It will be very interesting to see how well this binary world-view survives yesterday's disclosures at the Manufactured Gold thread in Comics General.

[drbanner]

As someone who has repeatedly posted that I don't mind restored GA books, I don't recall anyone ever having anything derogatory to say about my position. I have also heard the comment that "PLODs are the best deal in the marketplace" several times.

 

That said, I have no interested in restored SA or BA books as there are plenty of unrestored copies of these available, and I dont' need uber-high grade copies.

[GreatEscape]

As someone who has repeatedly posted that I don't mind restored GA books, I don't recall anyone ever having anything derogatory to say about my position. I have also heard the comment that "PLODs are the best deal in the marketplace" several times.

 

That said, I have no interested in restored SA or BA books as there are plenty of unrestored copies of these available, and I dont' need uber-high grade copies.

 

My two cents...

 

In the past, I avoided restored books altogether and dreaded the sight of a PLOD coming out my CGC submissions. I even sold these restored books on eBay right away (often at a loss) to keep my collecton "pure" and PLOD-free.

 

However, as my GA collection has expanded and I began pursuing less familiar titles and rarer books in general, I've had to change my perspective. I realize that for high scarcity/demand books, I will not see nice unrestored specimens for years and if they do show up prices can be astronomical (ie, GCE #12).

 

 

In August, I purchased this Mystic Comics #10-- my first restored book and newly PLOD'ed-- as a placeholder in my collection having been on my want list for...(uh)...ever. I now find myself considering other restored copies of some books because those are the only specimens I can locate. What's a collector to do?

 

These restored books look great and cost less...and allow me to fill my collection needs. But then I see restored Detective #35 books selling on eBay for 2x unrestored guide!!!

 

GE

[Comicdey]

As someone who has repeatedly posted that I don't mind restored GA books, I don't recall anyone ever having anything derogatory to say about my position. I have also heard the comment that "PLODs are the best deal in the marketplace" several times.

 

That said, I have no interested in restored SA or BA books as there are plenty of unrestored copies of these available, and I dont' need uber-high grade copies.

 

I like HG PLOD's GA that is with Slight (P)

[drbanner]

As someone who has repeatedly posted that I don't mind restored GA books, I don't recall anyone ever having anything derogatory to say about my position. I have also heard the comment that "PLODs are the best deal in the marketplace" several times.

 

That said, I have no interested in restored SA or BA books as there are plenty of unrestored copies of these available, and I dont' need uber-high grade copies.

 

I like HG PLOD's GA that is with Slight (P)

 

Good point on the degree of restoration, and I need to clarify my position - most of my PLODs are due to cover reattached/reinforced, centerfold reattached/reinforced, small amount of glue on spine, etc.,. I generally avoid restored books with piece replacement and/or color touch because the books don't appear "original" to me anymore - if I can see the work I'll generally avoid it.

 

I certainly feel books in PLODs with the types of resto noted above are great deals, as to many...a PLOD is a PLOD is a PLOD regardless of the type and extent of work. It's too bad that all PLODs are equally deemed damaged goods, as if not, CGC might be more apt to identify "conserved" books (read: pressed books) on their labels and the raging controversy over these minor types of restorative/conservative procedures would not place a black cloud over their services...