The Black Hand ® Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I'll tell you one thing, if that was an unrestored copy of Detective #1 that looked that nice, it'd be a pretty cool book to have. I have to admit that the cover is close to being iconic, at least for hardcore GA collectors. just for a different perspective (I love restored books, so I don't "get it" with the negativity to them), why is it any less cool that is has some restoration? I guess it's because it's amazing a book can survive untouched in such good condition for that long. I've seen too many restored books that look good from three feet away, but once you hold them close you can see all the work. I've also seen restored books with decent looking restored covers but with tanning pages on the inside, that's a turnoff for me. Restored books have their place, but they don't have the appeal to me that a pristine untouched book has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBedrock Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I totally fail to understand how the 10-point CGC grading system can be such a boon by introducing independent grading transparency to the marketplace, while a 10-point restoration system would only introduce total confusion and misleading information into the marketplace. I thought the issue wasn't that they were going to implement a ten point restoration system, but they were going to implement it and also start a comic book restoration service at the same time. There were also plans to do away with the purple label. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showcase4 Posted January 21, 2008 Author Share Posted January 21, 2008 just for a different perspective (I love restored books, so I don't "get it" with the negativity to them), why is it any less cool that is has some restoration? restored books are funny compared to other areas of life ( no pun intended ): restored house becomes nicer looking / worth more restored classic car becomes nicer looking / worth more restored grand piano becomes nicer looking / worth more restored comic book becomes nicer looking / worth less as a general response to your question, having nothing to do with the Tec 1 in this thread, I am a non-restored collector as you know....maybe one of the most passionate / unyielding along with Peter ( Action1Kid ). My reasons are actually quite simple.....I like unrestored books because they are true to the year they were printed....only "contain" printing materials from that year. Lets take an unrestored tec 27 as an example .......an unrestored 2.0 copy, although rough looking with regards to tears, creases, cover chipping and spine wear, has a 1939 cover with 1939 staples and 1939 cover inks and 1939 gloss ( if any is left ) and 1939 interior pages. When trying to make the book more presentable by adding 2007 acrylic paint, 2007 glue, and 2007 rice paper, the "1939" gets lost for me.......the book morphs into something other than its original self. It will be prettier and more structually stable, but for me,it has lost its "vintage" magic. reason #2 -- with the ever changing attitude by the hobby towards restored books, I find it a little hard to predict "down the road" desirability and therefore value. I have been selling alot of books lately, and I never worry about my unrestored copies...they have no "if only" attached to them. I think I would be nervous owning alot of restored books, as I don't know in 2012 how they will be viewed.....yet I know exactly how an unrestored book will be viewed in 2012. Hope I said all this as PC as possible .....this is the Gold section of the Boards afterall...... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBedrock Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 as a general response to your question, having nothing to do with the Tec 1 in this thread, I am a non-restored collector as you know....maybe one of the most passionate / unyielding along with Peter ( Action1Kid ). My reasons are actually quite simple.....I like unrestored books because they are true to the year they were printed....only "contain" printing materials from that year. Lets take an unrestored tec 27 as an example .......an unrestored 2.0 copy, although rough looking with regards to tears, creases, cover chipping and spine wear, has a 1939 cover with 1939 staples and 1939 cover inks and 1939 gloss ( if any is left ) and 1939 interior pages. When trying to make the book more presentable by adding 2007 acrylic paint, 2007 glue, and 2007 rice paper, the "1939" gets lost for me.......the book morphs into something other than its original self. It will be prettier and more structually stable, but for me,it has lost its "vintage" magic. This is an interesting and valid argument, Steve. (thumbs u Except for the fact that if a kid in 1939 took an ink pen and colored in the spine line on that same Detective 27, and then it sat until being submitted to CGC, it would still be placed in a purple label and considered restored. Even with that vintage 1939 restoration using 1939 inks from a 1939 pen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 hello all... I can understand why some folks like restored books and some don't, to each his own, not trying to question that ...I guess my question was "why was tec 1 any less "cool" because it has some restoration"...I didn't mean why one likes restored and why one doesn't...I meant, the comic is the comic, irregardless of someone adding restoration to it...its "coolness" factor should not be affected at all...but, I wanted the black hand to clarify for me, where he was coming from, and he did, and I thank him...to him, it was "cool" that a book could survive looking that nice for so long...he was not saying tec 1 was "less" cool than it is, just less cool that it couldn't survive in as nice of shape...I can dig that! peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hand ® Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 There are other areas of collecting where it's considered negative to restore. Some furniture collectors don't like it when a piece has been cleaned and the patina removed. Same for the bases of certain types of bronze lamps. I think it's extensive resto that gives a lot of collectors the willies especially when so much of the book has been altered. I would like to see spefic degrees of restoration noted especially since it's such a sensitive issue. There will and there should be a price consequence for restored books and it should be based on the level of restoration involved and the quality of the restoration. Mr. Bedrocks example of a kid in 1939 running a line of ink along the spine of a book is an example of a defect in my opinion and one that cgc should be able to differentiate between as far as defect and resto go. That's what they get paid for. I think that if a little time and effort were spent on this and cgc were to become more specific, the market would truly be able to decide the value of restored versus unrestored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.schomburg Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Ultimately the market will determine how we look at restored books. As more collectors starving for key rare books compete for them, restored prices will rise. At least this is my opinion, now of course we have seen segments do this already where restored books bring 2X urestored guide. On common books, restoration will be a much larger hit to value, as these books can be had with out restoration still for a reasonable price. I think for mega keys, like Action 1, Tec 27-38, Superman 1, and even more common books like Batman 1, Captain America 1 prices will grow even in restored grades and have already. Many silver collectors young with passion for the hobby and smaller pocket books will join into the race and love of the hunt and take restored copies of these as they can be had at much less than the untouched counter parts. At that point, the supply vs. demand will drive these prices up. This will also happen to the long term more fiscally stable collector, they I believe will start accepting books with SP, just to aquire the book. Otherwise they may never own the book, and this again will drive those types of books higher, and higher. Restoration brings into it many feelings, most brought on by non-disclosure. Many after 2000 with the inception of CGC were hurt extensively when suddenly finding out the books they had purchased had indeed been worked on when previously they had though otherwise. At that point many of the perceptions of "restoration as negative" formed, and just now we are seeing some of those challanged. With out restoration we would have many less copies available,and prices would be much higher. With out restoration the future of these books would also be in question, it is and will be a part of the hobby. I don't begrudge a collector collecting only unrestored books, but I don't see a restored book as a pariah either. I would of course like to have a fully unrestored collection, but I can't afford to buy 50K+ and still live they way I would like to live. I also might only buy one or two books a year if that was the case. When I see a collector here on the boards post a raw treasure such as a Superman 1, or early Tec, or any other fantastic book I don't automatically think...Is that restored? I actually find it rude to ask, if its not being offered for sale. I have found myself asking that question before, its rude and I have tried to refrain...does it make the book any less? No, it doesn't..that person worked hard to find and or afford the book. My point is, we have become trained in a way of thinking negative to restoration and we need to stop, take a step back and enjoy the book. After all thats why we are here, and why we collect..right??? We love funny books, all kinds. Sure some are more amazing, some are classic, some are just classic and amazing to that one person. The significance of a book is in the eye of the collector who owns or is persuing that particular book. Just my 2 cents! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aman619 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 assuming an increase in demand for the very keyest of GA keys (which is not a sure bet) I think demand for restored copies will increase in ten years as the demans will force buyers to accomodate a little resto to get the books they desire. This line of thinking ties in with the overall future of our hobby as it matures, and , along with other paper collectibles faces the unavoidable reality of the finite lifespan of cheap paper. DDay will be approaching decades from now, and a totally unrestored and undecomposing comic book from 1939 might be a physical impossibility. or maybe not for 100 years (Im not a scientist...) and by then, when we are starving and drowning and trying to survive a nuclear war who's gonna care??? (thought Id end on a cheerful note!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciorac Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 as a general response to your question, having nothing to do with the Tec 1 in this thread, I am a non-restored collector as you know....maybe one of the most passionate / unyielding along with Peter ( Action1Kid ). My reasons are actually quite simple.....I like unrestored books because they are true to the year they were printed....only "contain" printing materials from that year. Lets take an unrestored tec 27 as an example .......an unrestored 2.0 copy, although rough looking with regards to tears, creases, cover chipping and spine wear, has a 1939 cover with 1939 staples and 1939 cover inks and 1939 gloss ( if any is left ) and 1939 interior pages. When trying to make the book more presentable by adding 2007 acrylic paint, 2007 glue, and 2007 rice paper, the "1939" gets lost for me.......the book morphs into something other than its original self. It will be prettier and more structually stable, but for me,it has lost its "vintage" magic. This is an interesting and valid argument, Steve. (thumbs u Except for the fact that if a kid in 1939 took an ink pen and colored in the spine line on that same Detective 27, and then it sat until being submitted to CGC, it would still be placed in a purple label and considered restored. Even with that vintage 1939 restoration using 1939 inks from a 1939 pen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciorac Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Ultimately the market will determine how we look at restored books. As more collectors starving for key rare books compete for them, restored prices will rise. At least this is my opinion, now of course we have seen segments do this already where restored books bring 2X urestored guide. On common books, restoration will be a much larger hit to value, as these books can be had with out restoration still for a reasonable price. I think for mega keys, like Action 1, Tec 27-38, Superman 1, and even more common books like Batman 1, Captain America 1 prices will grow even in restored grades and have already. Many silver collectors young with passion for the hobby and smaller pocket books will join into the race and love of the hunt and take restored copies of these as they can be had at much less than the untouched counter parts. At that point, the supply vs. demand will drive these prices up. This will also happen to the long term more fiscally stable collector, they I believe will start accepting books with SP, just to aquire the book. Otherwise they may never own the book, and this again will drive those types of books higher, and higher. Restoration brings into it many feelings, most brought on by non-disclosure. Many after 2000 with the inception of CGC were hurt extensively when suddenly finding out the books they had purchased had indeed been worked on when previously they had though otherwise. At that point many of the perceptions of "restoration as negative" formed, and just now we are seeing some of those challanged. With out restoration we would have many less copies available,and prices would be much higher. With out restoration the future of these books would also be in question, it is and will be a part of the hobby. I don't begrudge a collector collecting only unrestored books, but I don't see a restored book as a pariah either. I would of course like to have a fully unrestored collection, but I can't afford to buy 50K+ and still live they way I would like to live. I also might only buy one or two books a year if that was the case. When I see a collector here on the boards post a raw treasure such as a Superman 1, or early Tec, or any other fantastic book I don't automatically think...Is that restored? I actually find it rude to ask, if its not being offered for sale. I have found myself asking that question before, its rude and I have tried to refrain...does it make the book any less? No, it doesn't..that person worked hard to find and or afford the book. My point is, we have become trained in a way of thinking negative to restoration and we need to stop, take a step back and enjoy the book. After all thats why we are here, and why we collect..right??? We love funny books, all kinds. Sure some are more amazing, some are classic, some are just classic and amazing to that one person. The significance of a book is in the eye of the collector who owns or is persuing that particular book. Just my 2 cents! Very well put Paulie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciorac Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 just for a different perspective (I love restored books, so I don't "get it" with the negativity to them), why is it any less cool that is has some restoration? restored books are funny compared to other areas of life ( no pun intended ): restored house becomes nicer looking / worth more restored classic car becomes nicer looking / worth more restored grand piano becomes nicer looking / worth more restored comic book becomes nicer looking / worth less as a general response to your question, having nothing to do with the Tec 1 in this thread, I am a non-restored collector as you know....maybe one of the most passionate / unyielding along with Peter ( Action1Kid ). My reasons are actually quite simple.....I like unrestored books because they are true to the year they were printed....only "contain" printing materials from that year. Lets take an unrestored tec 27 as an example .......an unrestored 2.0 copy, although rough looking with regards to tears, creases, cover chipping and spine wear, has a 1939 cover with 1939 staples and 1939 cover inks and 1939 gloss ( if any is left ) and 1939 interior pages. When trying to make the book more presentable by adding 2007 acrylic paint, 2007 glue, and 2007 rice paper, the "1939" gets lost for me.......the book morphs into something other than its original self. It will be prettier and more structually stable, but for me,it has lost its "vintage" magic. reason #2 -- with the ever changing attitude by the hobby towards restored books, I find it a little hard to predict "down the road" desirability and therefore value. I have been selling alot of books lately, and I never worry about my unrestored copies...they have no "if only" attached to them. I think I would be nervous owning alot of restored books, as I don't know in 2012 how they will be viewed.....yet I know exactly how an unrestored book will be viewed in 2012. Hope I said all this as PC as possible .....this is the Gold section of the Boards afterall...... Steve Steve, in some cases the only 2007 material added is the color touch. Many restoration professionals use vintage staples and paper when restoring books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Ultimately the market will determine how we look at restored books. As more collectors starving for key rare books compete for them, restored prices will rise. At least this is my opinion, now of course we have seen segments do this already where restored books bring 2X urestored guide. On common books, restoration will be a much larger hit to value, as these books can be had with out restoration still for a reasonable price. I think for mega keys, like Action 1, Tec 27-38, Superman 1, and even more common books like Batman 1, Captain America 1 prices will grow even in restored grades and have already. Many silver collectors young with passion for the hobby and smaller pocket books will join into the race and love of the hunt and take restored copies of these as they can be had at much less than the untouched counter parts. At that point, the supply vs. demand will drive these prices up. This will also happen to the long term more fiscally stable collector, they I believe will start accepting books with SP, just to aquire the book. Otherwise they may never own the book, and this again will drive those types of books higher, and higher. Restoration brings into it many feelings, most brought on by non-disclosure. Many after 2000 with the inception of CGC were hurt extensively when suddenly finding out the books they had purchased had indeed been worked on when previously they had though otherwise. At that point many of the perceptions of "restoration as negative" formed, and just now we are seeing some of those challanged. With out restoration we would have many less copies available,and prices would be much higher. With out restoration the future of these books would also be in question, it is and will be a part of the hobby. I don't begrudge a collector collecting only unrestored books, but I don't see a restored book as a pariah either. I would of course like to have a fully unrestored collection, but I can't afford to buy 50K+ and still live they way I would like to live. I also might only buy one or two books a year if that was the case. When I see a collector here on the boards post a raw treasure such as a Superman 1, or early Tec, or any other fantastic book I don't automatically think...Is that restored? I actually find it rude to ask, if its not being offered for sale. I have found myself asking that question before, its rude and I have tried to refrain...does it make the book any less? No, it doesn't..that person worked hard to find and or afford the book. My point is, we have become trained in a way of thinking negative to restoration and we need to stop, take a step back and enjoy the book. After all thats why we are here, and why we collect..right??? We love funny books, all kinds. Sure some are more amazing, some are classic, some are just classic and amazing to that one person. The significance of a book is in the eye of the collector who owns or is persuing that particular book. Just my 2 cents! Very well put Paulie. schommy is very articulate, is he not (thumbs u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aman619 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 bah - - I said the same thing in only 82 words!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciorac Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 bah - - I said the same thing in only 82 words!! brevity is the soul of wit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBedrock Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 bah - - I said the same thing in only 82 words!! brevity is the soul of wit Yeah, and not using many words is cool, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciorac Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 bah - - I said the same thing in only 82 words!! brevity is the soul of wit Yeah, and not using many words is cool, too. way cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 bah - - I said the same thing in only 82 words!! brevity is the soul of wit Yeah, and not using many words is cool, too. typing less letters is even better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aman619 Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 ys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashrael Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 bah - - I said the same thing in only 82 words!! brevity is the soul of wit Greggy must be a wit-god Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 bah - - I said the same thing in only 82 words!! brevity is the soul of wit Greggy must be a wit-god I thought he was the roman god of the nap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
