Detective Comics 27 on Ebay

[showcase4]

Out there in the world, if you show somebody pictures of a book whose cover is shorn off and torn right down the middle, with chunks out the edges, etc. etc. you do not expect a person to look beyond thse defects as if they don't matter but then flip out completelly because some of the other defects -- also easy to see -- were not identitied by them with a term you would use (i.e. "restoration")

 

Bluechip,

I do believe we are not getting along as grandly as possible....and to think I voted for you in the 'Boards Awards' thread as best up and coming new guy on the Boards. As for my acceptance of detached covers, and non-acceptance of restoration...that's my choice...you buy what you want, and I'll buy what I want. You can not criticize me for having different criteria than you ...I'm sure others here would agree. I don't know enough about you Bluechip to know if you have ever spent as much as $21,000 on a single book, but that was my bid here, and I can tell you that is real money I was offering, and with that much at stake, think how foolish I would be with an "anythnig goes....who cares, it's just a little resto" after the fact mentality, if that's not what I'm looking for. I am trying to word this respectfully even though your post was not. I have been 'flagged' several times on the Boards for expressing some hostility...mostly towards you, so I have my "watch what you say" hat on right now. I can tell you this Bluechip, if something comes on Ebay that you really, really want and you stick your neck and bid $21,000 on it, I would never fault you for changing your mind if the seller added addtional info after you bid that was relevant to what you thought you were potentially buying. Additionally, it is now very easy to say that the resto is "easy to see" since 10 different people gave their opinion and FFB posted a pic with blue circles around some color touch bleed thru...hindsight is 20/20. I think you owe me a whole room full of these:

 

The seller had a responsibilty here, ESPECIALLY if he is not a comic collector/delaer, to seek an expert opinion of what he was offering, to aviod a situation like this. I'm sure his "friend" - the real seller, told him it's a $30k+ book. I sell on Ebay, and if I was offering a $30K+ item I new nothing about, I sure would do my homework before the listing started.....but that's me. I actually care what my buyers receive, and always have extremely accurate ads.

 

This seller posted an email from the very beginning of the auction stating that this book was not restored, and also made the same claim thru 2 private emails to me. If he had simply said "I don't think so" or "I'm not sure" that would have been fine. Making claims as fact when the truth is he has no idea what he's talking about is a very serious violation of his responsibilities as an ethical seller....so don't paint the "mr. innocent" picture with too fine a brush. I'm sure this seller wouldn't want me to list a $30k Lionel train he was interested in, if I answered any questions he may have with complete guesses, and state them as fact.

[thedarkknight]

"You can not criticize me for having different criteria than you ...I'm sure others here would agree"

 

I DON"T. We do have freedom of speech in this country. It is the first amendment to the constitution. He has every right to say that and much more. If you don't agree, don't listen.

 

I'm sorry about the rant, but this is a major pet peeve of mine.

[14 of spades]

FFB - can u show highlight the japan-paper that u see? i can't find what u referred to.

[14 of spades]

"You can not criticize me for having different criteria than you ...I'm sure others here would agree"

 

I DON"T. We do have freedom of speech in this country. It is the first amendment to the constitution. He has every right to say that and much more. If you don't agree, don't listen.

 

I'm sorry about the rant, but this is a major pet peeve of mine.

 

 

 

he can certainly say, "You SHOULDN'T criticize me for having different criteria than you..."

 

don't u get his gist?

[showcase4]

"You can not criticize me for having different criteria than you ...I'm sure others here would agree"

 

I DON"T. We do have freedom of speech in this country. It is the first amendment to the constitution. He has every right to say that and much more. If you don't agree, don't listen.

 

I'm sorry about the rant, but this is a major pet peeve of mine.

 

Darkknight....everything is OK...take a deep breath. This is just a comics blog site...no one is getting murdered or maimed here. Bluechip and I will be just fine after this little differing of opinions

[infinite_comics-migration]

Aw, too bad you guys didn't wait to tell Showcase-4 about the Resto after he purchased it. Just the embarassment mighta shut his *spoon* mouth up...

[Comicdey]

Aw, too bad you guys didn't wait to tell Showcase-4 about the Resto after he purchased it. Just the embarassment mighta shut his *spoon* mouth up...

 

Ouch

 

Let's give a little slack to the guy that can't spot restoration from 5 feet away.

 

If you wanted a non-restored beater copy in your collection...then that's what you want.

 

I'd have had it restored either way if I was buying it..(which I could never justify to my wife, even if I was making 500K/year or more.....so it would be a non issue.

 

Showcase-4.....relax man....you're getting the help you need...no reason to take such great offence to other opinions.

[bluechip]

Re: Different criteria.

 

Of course you can have different criteria than others, but youi should not expect others to share it or insist they have to share it.

 

The simple fact is the word restoration implies improvement. If you ask the average person whether a book that's clearly beat up has been "restored" they're not going to look at magic marker spots and say that's restoration. It's counter-intuitive. It's hasn't made the book better, it's made it worse. It's an additional defect, not restoration.

 

Now it can be a deal-breaking defect for you, but from showcasw4s description it sounds like he said is it restored, not does it have some ink markings. If he had asked that question, and the seller said it didn't, then the seller had either failed to disclose or failed to notice a defect.

 

That may be an oversight by the seller, but even if he failed to do so you have to take into account he readily showed the book's cover was torn in two. if he wanted to hide something, that would have been a much better place to start. A tiny bit of tape on the spine would've made the thing look a whole lot better.

 

And I am sorry but it's not necessarly so that even a professional would agree that a book which is obviously no better than fair could be "restored" (again the word restored means IMPROVED) by the addition of additional defects in the form of magic marker.

 

To insist so is to insist that others share your views, or standards, even when so many have made clear they don't.

 

Frankly, if it's your own personal pet peeve and you're not interested in forcing everybody to mae it the standard, then iypo're better off not trying to force others to adopt it. How? It's simple.

 

IIf a seller knows that magic marker on a fair condition book means nothing to the grade, and nobody's trying to say that it's a "special" defect that damns it to a fraction of its otherwise value throughout the entire industry, then you can pretty much count on sellers to disclose it.

 

if, on the other hand, instead of simply passing on books like that yourself, you insist that the industry standard must be that all such defects are indeed "special" value-destroying defects, then sellers are going to be less inclined to disclose it. Some because they're dishonest, and some because they think that is simplly not rational.

 

It's simple. If you don't want them, don't buy them. And if you have a special need for books not to have that defect, then you make special efforts to avoid them yourself without necessarily expecting the world to change. You can check and not bid, or withdraw your bids when you find out. Or you can insist on escrow, or arrange for someone else to pick it up, etc. These are all things I've done in the past.

 

But so long as the restoration means IMPROVING a defect -- as opposed to ADDING a defect, you can't expect the average person -- or even the average xperience collector or professional -- to use a term that is counter-intuitive.

 

Knowing that, you can always guard yourself against it, but I think it's wrong to attack a seller as dishonest and to make it so plain that you'r angling to make the item sell for less (or even just hoping it does to spite them).

 

Final note. Speaking of counter-intuitive terms, look at places like Disneyland, or even Starbucks, which invent their own terms for things. And sometimes those terms contradict what the rest of the world uses them for. Lie Starbucks calling a small drink a "tall." From the outset I have refused to use that term and every time have insisted on calling their small a small. And not once has one of them failed to understand what I meant, or thrown a fit because I didn't use their inaccurate term.

 

.

[The Black Hand ®]

Aw, too bad you guys didn't wait to tell Showcase-4 about the Resto after he purchased it. Just the embarassment mighta shut his *spoon* mouth up...

 

Ouch

 

Let's give a little slack to the guy that can't spot restoration from 5 feet away.

 

If you wanted a non-restored beater copy in your collection...then that's what you want.

 

I'd have had it restored either way if I was buying it..(which I could never justify to my wife, even if I was making 500K/year or more.....so it would be a non issue.

 

Showcase-4.....relax man....you're getting the help you need...no reason to take such great offence to other opinions.

 

Two questions for you guys. How much resto would you have done on the 27 and how much would it cost?

[G.A.tor]

hello all...

I would reattach the cover, some pieces add, a little color touch, and away you go...

rick

[Comicdey]

Aw, too bad you guys didn't wait to tell Showcase-4 about the Resto after he purchased it. Just the embarassment mighta shut his *spoon* mouth up...

 

Ouch

 

Let's give a little slack to the guy that can't spot restoration from 5 feet away.

 

If you wanted a non-restored beater copy in your collection...then that's what you want.

 

I'd have had it restored either way if I was buying it..(which I could never justify to my wife, even if I was making 500K/year or more.....so it would be a non issue.

 

Showcase-4.....relax man....you're getting the help you need...no reason to take such great offence to other opinions.

 

Two questions for you guys. How much resto would you have done on the 27 and how much would it cost?

 

Humpty Dumpty Repair....truthfully on that book, if you're going to repair it, you might as well go all the way and make it as nice as possible, as you're already putting out a large $ sum to own a "restored book". So "if" I bought it, I'd probably pay in the thousands to bring it back to life and strengthen it structurally so when reading it, it didn't scare me that parts would flake off. Spine Rebuilt, Pieces Added, Re-color touch and creation as necessary (fully documented), de-acidified, cleaned and pressed. I would then put it in a Fortress and pull it out to peruse on occasion. Call it a frankenbook if you want on this one, but I'd rather have a well presenting restored book in this case, rather than a restored tattered copy that I paid $40K for.

[bluechip]

hello all...

I would reattach the cover, some pieces add, a little color touch, and away you go...

rick

 

Newforce is pretty right on, there. This sort of book is precisely the sort you go looing to restore, because it needs relatively little to look decent. And, most imnportantly, ro do not HAVE to recreate anything. You could leave the pieces missing and it would still look okay. To me, the ones that cross the line of desirability are the ones that don't look decent without actual artwork recreated, as opposed to just pieces of solid color areas.

 

BTW, perhaps one approach to restored books would be simoly to grade them as threy would be if you count all the defects -- keeping a split spine as a defect even after its been repaired. You could even add on defects for any restoration, esopecially if ;s non-removable. (and it would be a good thing to indicate whether it was removale or not)

 

You might end up with books graded fair that that look fine. And some books that grade fine but look mint. But it would fit, IMO, the purported intent of the network of disclosure.

[The Black Hand ®]

There doesn't appear to be any flaking on the pages that I can see and the upper right corner appears to be just slightly blunted. Would you have the pages lightened and strengthened? Also, would it make sense to the have the cover corners razor sharp or would you have the restorer match the interior corners?

[143ksk]

FFB - can u show highlight the japan-paper that u see? i can't find what u referred to.

 

 

The two circles in the bottom right both partially overlap the added piece. The piece is triangular and significantly whiter than the rest of the cover.

[showcase4]

FFB - can u show highlight the japan-paper that u see? i can't find what u referred to.

 

 

The two circles in the bottom right both partially overlap the added piece. The piece is triangular and significantly whiter than the rest of the cover.

 

once again I say

I thought that lighter triangular piece was from the background, like the book was laying on some other item made of paper....not attached to this book as an added piece! No wonder everyone thought I was blind! This picture is quite deceiving when you 1st look at it ( not that it was done intentionally....more like an optical illusion )

[FFB]

FFB - can u show highlight the japan-paper that u see? i can't find what u referred to.

 

 

The two circles in the bottom right both partially overlap the added piece. The piece is triangular and significantly whiter than the rest of the cover.

 

That's what I was referring to, but after looking at it again, it probably is not Japan paper. Originally I thought it might be a piece added because the red on the front cover is a different shade than it is on the surrounding area and because the line work in that section looks almost blurry. This could be a trick of the camera flash though, or it could be some other kind of paper that is taped to the inside cover (maybe even the original cover piece that is taped back in place). The line between the dark and the light part viewed from the inside cover is too clean for such amateurish work if it were actually Japan paper used to recreate that portion of the cover.

 

The color touch I am sure of. I would need to see the book in hand to say with any certainty what is going on with that lighter piece in the lower corner.

[Comicdey]

Still at the going rate of 11k +/- there's a lot of room for increases since Showcase 4 dropped his bids. Even for a restoration candidate.

 

It will be intersting to see how this one ends up and how much restoration is attempted in the future.

[143ksk]

FFB - can u show highlight the japan-paper that u see? i can't find what u referred to.

 

 

The two circles in the bottom right both partially overlap the added piece. The piece is triangular and significantly whiter than the rest of the cover.

 

That's what I was referring to, but after looking at it again, it probably is not Japan paper. Originally I thought it might be a piece added because the red on the front cover is a different shade than it is on the surrounding area and because the line work in that section looks almost blurry. This could be a trick of the camera flash though, or it could be some other kind of paper that is taped to the inside cover (maybe even the original cover piece that is taped back in place). The line between the dark and the light part viewed from the inside cover is too clean for such amateurish work if it were actually Japan paper used to recreate that portion of the cover.

 

The color touch I am sure of. I would need to see the book in hand to say with any certainty what is going on with that lighter piece in the lower corner.

 

I agree that I don't think it's Japan paper, but I definitely do think it's an added piece that was colored on the other side to match the cover. I've had at least one book with a similar piece of "restoration" A piece of paper is glued (or otherwise affixed) to the inside of the cover (hence the straight edge) and then colored on the opposite side. Presto, you've reduced your book's value and appearance in one fell swoop

[FFB]

Still at the going rate of 11k +/- there's a lot of room for increases since Showcase 4 dropped his bids. Even for a restoration candidate.

 

It will be intersting to see how this one ends up and how much restoration is attempted in the future.

 

If this book sells for anywhere near $20K or less, the buyer will have gotten a steal. This book can almost certainly be restored to Ext. P 7.0 or better. If restored, it'll probably sell in the neighborhood of $45,000 at the Extensive (P) 7.0 level. And if all of the pages are there, it'll only cost about $4,000 or so to get it restored by Susan Cicconi, who can probably get at least a 7.0 out of this book (look what she did with Brent M's Detective #29 on her website). That's a hell of a return on investment.

[Comicdey]

Still at the going rate of 11k +/- there's a lot of room for increases since Showcase 4 dropped his bids. Even for a restoration candidate.

 

It will be intersting to see how this one ends up and how much restoration is attempted in the future.

 

If this book sells for anywhere near $20K or less, the buyer will have gotten a steal. This book can almost certainly be restored to Ext. P 7.0 or better. If restored, it'll probably sell in the neighborhood of $45,000 at the Extensive (P) 7.0 level. And if all of the pages are there, it'll only cost about $4,000 or so to get it restored by Susan Cicconi, who can probably get at least a 7.0 out of this book (look what she did with Brent M's Detective #29 on her website). That's a hell of a return on investment.

 

I agree...we'll see....it's a level of the comic game that I don't play in. (intentionally)