Questions for CGC and the Liason Committee

[codfish]

Interesting. I don't know anyone who has a hate on for the colour of the label more than what it means. Like I said before people don't like resto and the purple label clearly means resto. I don't think changing the colour or ID tags is going to change that.

 

The thing I am wondering though is that if eBay changed the restoration id tags and dropped the purple label would this mean that books with very small amounts of resto that are not identified as restored now be considered restored? If that change came into place I probably could live with only one label colour. Somehow though I don't see people liking the idea of their once "not restored" gems being identified as restored ... even if it got the most favorable restored rating..... I think alot of people would be very surprised at just how many books are restored out there.

[bluechip]

Interesting. I don't know anyone who has a hate on for the colour of the label more than what it means. Like I said before people don't like resto and the purple label clearly means resto. I don't think changing the colour or ID tags is going to change that.

 

The thing I am wondering though is that if eBay changed the restoration id tags and dropped the purple label would this mean that books with very small amounts of resto that are not identified as restored now be considered restored? If that change came into place I probably could live with only one label colour. Somehow though I don't see people liking the idea of their once "not restored" gems being identified as restored ... even if it got the most favorable restored rating..... I think alot of people would be very surprised at just how many books are restored out there.

 

 

Re: <<<<I don't know anyone who has a hate on for the colour of the label more than what it means. >>>>

 

I am guessing we don't know many of the same people. Prior to the purple label I saw many sales of books openly called restored and people didn't seem to mind paying a decent price for them. The idea for many of them was that they didn't mind buying a book that was technically lower grade, but they wanted it to look nice, too. Forcing those people to put their books in an ugly label takes much away the "looks nice" appeal of a restored book.

 

And as I said I can't speak for the intent behind making it so in the first place, but you sure do hear people who hate resto weighing in that that it's a good thing people are forced to make a nice looking book appear ugly.

 

There are plenty of people, including myself, who didn't mind having a restored book outside a label, but who would never be willing to have -- let alone pay for -- a book in an a slab with a label that is designed to make the book uglier.

 

<<<I don't think changing the colour or ID tags is going to change that.>>>

 

You go on to say you wouldn't mind seeing the PLOD abandoned under certain conditions, so this may not aplly to you, but I am confused by how many people say it wouldn't matter if books were labelled restored in slabs without an "ugly" label -- yet the same people simultaneously insist we must not abandon the ugly label. Seems there's either a contradiction in that, or a desire that is not being expressed.

 

Forget the undisclosed restored books a moment. A look at the prices realized for DISCLOSED restored prior to CGC and after CGC shows that there was an effect.

 

And that's because the label is much more of a stigma that a notation that the book is simply restored.

 

(It is also because the label fails to give real details about what work was done, something which is easier to tell if you are able to look at the book).

 

Those factors absolutely have caused people who didn't mind restored books before to be more wary of them.

 

And it seems like a lot of people who say (at least inirially) "that's not true" are the same people who eventually indicate that even if it is/were true it doesn't matter because that's how it "should" be.

 

I can point to a lot of things out there being sold for more than what I think they should sell for, but I'd feel damned strange asking CGC to put (or keep putting) special labels on them to make them undesirable. It would just feel out of keeping with the goal of objectitivy.

[drbanner]

I think that would still be an improvement over purple. In a male dominated hobby such as comics.....you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that CGC didn't realize that the majority wouldn't want a purple collection of slabs.

 

Had they went with red instead.....I think the current market for restored slabs would be completely different.

 

You're not serious, are you? You think that restored books have suffered not because they are restored, not because CGC gave them a different color label, but rather because the color CGC chose for that different color label is purple? And that CGC conciously chose the color purple knowing that the color itself, not the fact that the books are restored, would depress prices? If PLODs were RLODs (Red Label of Doom), you think the market for restored books would be completely different? Maybe I'm missing the sarcasm gremlin?

 

Purple is the color of royalty...the imperial robes of Roman emperors were purple...Crown Royal comes in a purple box...Deep Purple...Purple Haze...Purple Rain...okay, maybe not Purple Rain but you get the idea! up

[DeeDee-migration]

I think that would still be an improvement over purple. In a male dominated hobby such as comics.....you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that CGC didn't realize that the majority wouldn't want a purple collection of slabs.

 

Had they went with red instead.....I think the current market for restored slabs would be completely different.

 

You're not serious, are you? You think that restored books have suffered not because they are restored, not because CGC gave them a different color label, but rather because the color CGC chose for that different color label is purple? And that CGC conciously chose the color purple knowing that the color itself, not the fact that the books are restored, would depress prices? If PLODs were RLODs (Red Label of Doom), you think the market for restored books would be completely different? Maybe I'm missing the sarcasm gremlin?

 

Purple is the color of royalty...the imperial robes of Roman emperors were purple...Crown Royal comes in a purple box...Deep Purple...Purple Haze...Purple Rain...okay, maybe not Purple Rain but you get the idea! up

 

I agree. The idea that the label is "ugly" is nonsense. A label is a label. The reason restored books don't fetch as much as unrestored ones is not because of the label being purple, its just because restored books are less desirable to most collectors, especially if there are better, unrestored copies to be had. CGC has nothing to do with this. Ask any collector, and they'll always take the unrestored over the restored (unless the price is too high).

I don't mind restored books at all, if there's a nice looking PLOD of a book i really want, I'll go for it, I couldn't care less if the label is purple of green with yellow dots.

[mica]

Purple is great.

And Purple is manly there........ I said it.

[grider67]

I couldn't care less if the label is purple of green with yellow dots.

 

Oh and thanks DeeDee for ruining the surprise! That was the next label color scheme. Damn you!

[THE_BEYONDER]

I wasn't being sarcastic. The label is everything. CGC removed the letter grade from the label because sellers didn't didn't like seeing a minus sign (NM-) on their books. Notations were removed. To say that the color of the restored label has no impact on the perception of restored books is naive. The whole market is propped up by label chasers.

 

I'm not saying that the color of the label is solely to blame for the plummeting prices of restored books....but it sure didn't help.

 

I would love to hear the reasoning behind choosing purple in the 1st place.

[bluechip]

 

I agree. The idea that the label is "ugly" is nonsense. A label is a label. The reason restored books don't fetch as much as unrestored ones is not because of the label being purple, its just because restored books are less desirable to most collectors, especially if there are better, unrestored copies to be had. CGC has nothing to do with this.

 

While it's reasonable to say one color or another is not the question, but it simply doesn't hold up to say that a differentl,y colored label had absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

There was a time before PLODs when restored books (and by that i mean DISCLOSED restored books) did sell for more. Why, do people insist on saying the labels had no effect, and it's only the fact that people don't like the books anyway, so they wouldn't buy them regardless of color

 

If that's true then why insist on a special color that denotes "problem"?

 

I can't tell you why people say that, because I can't read their minds. But I can tell you that whenver a person says "it's not the label, it's the market," it is nearly always somebody who says restored books SHOULD be less.

 

I heard the same argument back when restrored boos were selling for mroe. People annoyed they were selling for decent prices saying that it simply shouldn't be so.

 

If it is only the market now, then why is it the market didn't create the same effect back then?

 

 

 

When the poster asks whether he'd like to hear the reasoning behind the label in the first place, I would also like to hear a reason beyond "I gotta be able to spot it from far away."

 

Because people who want the purple label clearly want it for more than that. History shows that whenever one group of people want to ruin a group of people within their society, the most simple and reliable way of doig it was to force those people to wear special marks -- so that other people could spot them from far away and know they were supposed to avoid doing business with them.

 

(and in most every case the marks main purpose was not help identify the bad people for those would've avoided them anyway, but to pur pressure on the people who would not have avoided them otherwise.

 

Nobody can say whether that was the motivation behind inventing the PLOD in the first place, but a quick scan of posts makes it clear that are lots of people who think that's why they should remain.

 

 

 

 

 

[chaos_ad-migration]

I wasn't being sarcastic. The label is everything. CGC removed the letter grade from the label because sellers didn't didn't like seeing a minus sign (NM-) on their books. Notations were removed.

 

It was actually a comic buyer(s) that Steve singled out for the "minus/negative" problem:

 

""The quick answer and bottom line here is that the grade needed to be bigger so people could see it from far away. It was a pain, at conventions, to see the grade on the label on a sellers wall from in front of their table. Also, Nomenclature was removed, not only to make the grade bigger but it was fast becoming absolete to many buyers of certified comics. When we give out grades over the phone we don't say 3.5 VG minus, we just say 3.5. It is very rare that I hear a customer talking to me about a grade and saying very fine to near mint, they just say 9.0. Finally, and you may not believe this, but we have gotten calls from people who are new to comics and hate anything with a minus next to it. One guy did not care that his book was a 3.5, he just did not understand why he had a minus sign, what he called a negative, on his book."

[DeeDee-migration]

I couldn't care less if the label is purple of green with yellow dots.

 

Oh and thanks DeeDee for ruining the surprise! That was the next label color scheme. Damn you!

 

Actually, I would prefer a label with pink hello kitties all over it

 

photoshop anyone?

[codfish]

 

Re: <<<<I don't know anyone who has a hate on for the colour of the label more than what it means. >>>>

 

I am guessing we don't know many of the same people. Prior to the purple label I saw many sales of books openly called restored and people didn't seem to mind paying a decent price for them. The idea for many of them was that they didn't mind buying a book that was technically lower grade, but they wanted it to look nice, too. Forcing those people to put their books in an ugly label takes much away the "looks nice" appeal of a restored book.

 

Anecdotal "evidence" doesn't wash. They probably paid decent cash because they were able to analyze the book and come to the determination that the restoration was not as big a factor to them. Since CGC started identifying restoration the prices have probably dropped more because so many people just do not want restored books. People with restored books won't submit them because they know a clearly defined restored book will bring less cash in the online world.

 

If people really won't deal with a book because of the colour of the label alone that is just plain stupid in my eyes. I can't see how the colour of the label and not what it means would be such a huge stigma. Frankly those old red labels they had for moderns are far uglier ... even then I would not hesitate to buy the book inside.

 

And as I said I can't speak for the intent behind making it so in the first place, but you sure do hear people who hate resto weighing in that that it's a good thing people are forced to make a nice looking book appear ugly.

 

That's a totally new one to me. A label making a book look bad. I always assumed it was condition and whether or not a book was restored was the linchpins for what someone wanted to pay.

 

There are plenty of people, including myself, who didn't mind having a restored book outside a label, but who would never be willing to have -- let alone pay for -- a book in an a slab with a label that is designed to make the book uglier.

 

I hate to say it as it will probably earn me another strike ... that is just pathetic. If you cannot see a book as being nice because of the colour of a label ....

 

<<<I don't think changing the colour or ID tags is going to change that.>>>

 

You go on to say you wouldn't mind seeing the PLOD abandoned under certain conditions, so this may not aplly to you, but I am confused by how many people say it wouldn't matter if books were labelled restored in slabs without an "ugly" label -- yet the same people simultaneously insist we must not abandon the ugly label. Seems there's either a contradiction in that, or a desire that is not being expressed.

 

That is just a stupid argument. I said I could accept the dropping of the purple label provided that any new restoration id designations were applied to ALL books with even the slightest restoration including those books already in blue labeled holder with so slight restoration that CGC has unilaterally declared that they are not considered restored. I don't see any problem with saying I am in favor of keeping the purple label but being open other ideas. As long as the collector has a full set of data before him I really don't care how many label colours there are.

 

Forget the undisclosed restored books a moment. A look at the prices realized for DISCLOSED restored prior to CGC and after CGC shows that there was an effect.

 

And that's because the label is much more of a stigma that a notation that the book is simply restored.

 

And before CGC low grade and high,mid grade books fetched a better price ... actually often many of these books fetch better price raw than slabbed. So does the blue label not hold a fair amount of stigma as well? It would seem so using your reasoning above.

 

I can point to a lot of things out there being sold for more than what I think they should sell for, but I'd feel damned strange asking CGC to put (or keep putting) special labels on them to make them undesirable. It would just feel out of keeping with the goal of objectitivy.

 

CGC did not stigmatize restored books the market did. My understanding CGC put different coloured labels on books to make them clearly identifiable. CGC is not supposed to be about pricing and marketing. Their job is to grade books, detect restoration and determine certain authenticities (printings, pedigree, etc) and be impartial in doing so. It was all intended to help all levels of collectors and dealers. Pandering to market realities ruins any sort of impartiality changes should come about when the current standards a company uses are not working. To this extent CGC does need to work on their restoration designation system as it is clearly not very good at identifying how restored a book is ... but this has nothing to do with label colours.

 

Imo if there is no reason for a purple label then there is no reason for any other colour. The main reason people are giving to drop the purple label is fiscal which is a market thing and something CGC has no reason to deal with. But hey, I am open to change and I certainly would not object to any changes that are reasonable. All I really care about is that any assurance company like CGC is that they be impartial and transparent.

[Red Hook]

If CGC had decided to put restored books in slabs with a gold-leaf-trimmed label.....they'd be known as GLODs, and no one would want them any more than PLODs. The color has nothing to do with the reaction that collectors have to the labels.

 

And I have a degree in art. So there!

[grider67]

Actually, I would prefer a label with pink hello kitties all over it

 

Alright you mugs! You heard her! Move it!

[PovertyRow]

It is not like you are adding glue and/or color touch, using something artificial, to bring paper closer back to LOOK like it's original state. You ARE bringing it back closer to its original state. I and many of the top collector's and dealers have never seen a problem with this".

 

It is an innocent, almost off-the-cuff statement: "many...never seen a problem with this." But it actually reveals an underlying attitude that has really propagated since CGC: that there is something "wrong" with restoration and if it is not "wrong" then it is something other than restoration. One of the more frustrating things in the whole restoration area. And this attitude, conscious or not, simply propagates the inability for many to look objectively and dispassionately at restoration.

[THE_BEYONDER]

If CGC had decided to put restored books in slabs with a gold-leaf-trimmed label.....they'd be known as GLODs, and no one would want them any more than PLODs. The color has nothing to do with the reaction that collectors have to the labels.

 

And I have a degree in art. So there!

 

Hmm....

 

So why not make the Universal label pink? Surely this would have zero impact on the desirability of unrestored slabs....

[DeeDee-migration]

If CGC had decided to put restored books in slabs with a gold-leaf-trimmed label.....they'd be known as GLODs, and no one would want them any more than PLODs. The color has nothing to do with the reaction that collectors have to the labels.

 

And I have a degree in art. So there!

 

Hmm....

 

So why not make the Universal label pink? Surely this would have zero impact on the desirability of unrestored slabs....

 

Only if it has hello kitties on it

[codfish]

It is not like you are adding glue and/or color touch, using something artificial, to bring paper closer back to LOOK like it's original state. You ARE bringing it back closer to its original state. I and many of the top collector's and dealers have never seen a problem with this".

 

It is an innocent, almost off-the-cuff statement: "many...never seen a problem with this." But it actually reveals an underlying attitude that has really propagated since CGC: that there is something "wrong" with restoration and if it is not "wrong" then it is something other than restoration. One of the more frustrating things in the whole restoration area. And this attitude, conscious or not, simply propagates the inability for many to look objectively and dispassionately at restoration.

 

Oh I so agree with you there. It is very amazing how we can convince ourselves that something is not what it is.

[deathlok]

If CGC had decided to put restored books in slabs with a gold-leaf-trimmed label.....they'd be known as GLODs, and no one would want them any more than PLODs. The color has nothing to do with the reaction that collectors have to the labels.

 

And I have a degree in art. So there!

 

Hmm....

 

So why not make the Universal label pink? Surely this would have zero impact on the desirability of unrestored slabs....

 

Only if it has hello kitties on it

No, those would be used for signature series labels.

[DeeDee-migration]

If CGC had decided to put restored books in slabs with a gold-leaf-trimmed label.....they'd be known as GLODs, and no one would want them any more than PLODs. The color has nothing to do with the reaction that collectors have to the labels.

 

And I have a degree in art. So there!

 

Hmm....

 

So why not make the Universal label pink? Surely this would have zero impact on the desirability of unrestored slabs....

 

Only if it has hello kitties on it

No, those would be used for signature series labels.

 

[bluechip]

The color has nothing to do with the reaction that collectors have to the labels.

 

p

 

The only way to prove that would be to get rid of the special colored labels.

 

But people who say the labels aren't creating the effrect are the same people yelling the loudest to keep the labels.