Big Apple Hits Bottom

[towards2112]

Stallone did a porn movie... Does that mean he shouldn't show up at a comic convention for Judge Dredd?

 

(Okay, that was a bad example. I still thought the set designs for Judge Dredd were pretty cool though.)

 

Numerous stars have done Playboy as well (Pamela Anderson.. Barbwire.. Stripperella. Where do you draw the line?)

 

Shin, great question !!! Where DO you draw the line ?

[oldmilwaukee6er]

What are you trying to defend? Porn?

No... not really.

 

I just feel compelled to defend comics in all forms. It is part of what underground comix are about. Freedom.

 

I feel compelled to defend what is often viewed as a low-brow artform (i.e. comics).

 

And some of the views that have surfaced are shockingly reminiscent of comics struggles in the 50s. And antiquated IMHO.

 

'sides... it's more than a little hypocritical to lash out at overt sex when sex is SO VERY pervasive in the medium (and has been, almost since inception).

[topofthetotem]

What are you trying to defend? Porn?

No... not really.

 

I just feel compelled to defend comics in all forms. It is part of what underground comix are about. Freedom.

 

I feel compelled to defend what is often viewed as a low-brow artform (i.e. comics).

 

And some of the views that have surfaced are shockingly reminiscent of comics struggles in the 50s. And antiquated IMHO.

 

'sides... it's more than a little hypocritical to lash out at overt sex when sex is SO VERY pervasive in the medium (and has been, almost since inception).

To compare people not being comfortable having pornstars at a place where some bring their children and a government funded program of censorship based on questionable research is a bit much don't you think?

[underthebigw]

So easy to say when you are not a parent.

Daddy, why can't we go over there?

Daddy, what does that lady do?

Daddy, why is that lady naked in those pictures?

Why shouldn't a con be a family friendly venue? And why should parents have to be put in the position to explain sex to preschool kids because of something going on at a comic show?

 

i don't understand Z... parents are faced with these realities everyday.

why should comics be any different?

just because TV began as family-friendly, it doesn't follow that it is today. what do you tell your child when they ask you about Paris Hilton? Britney Spears? Saw III?

 

i do understand that what is at the heart of this thread...

*a certain personal nostalgia for comics which is presumed universal;

*notion that comics are for kids or at the very least must be kid-friendly;

*sex is different/dirtier than war, torture, horror, bondage.

 

the unspoken bias...that the sex that is already pervasive, yet latent in comics and comics fandom IS OK... until it becomes overt (assuming you define AH cvrs as latent).

 

Here's what you don't understand:

 

--Comics should ALSO be for kids. Of course not exclusively, but they should be included.

 

--Without kids, this industry and hobby is dead. It's bad enough that they can't buy books in drug stores, most books stores, and most newstands now. Just put the final nail in the coffin, and make them totally inaccessible. It's my personal belief, given the experience of many of my friends, that this keeps away kids. Either fathers don't feel comfortable in the situation or mothers feel it's the wrong environment for their children and don't even let them go.

 

--This is NOT about nostalgia. Quite the opposite. It's about being able to pass on something that I think most of us feel was a positive influence in our lives without being forced to expose our kids to explicit sexual material.

 

--There is a huge difference between latent sexual overtones and porn. There's no hypocrisy here. Just a fact. It's why porn is porn. And, if you have a kid, you probably don't want them exposed to it.

 

--No one is suggesting you ban sexual material from a show. It's just that it shouldn't be shoved in the face of kids. It's one thing to have a the material away in a box or discreetly available. It's another to have guests you have to explain, and innapropriate material on display.

 

You really need to stop reacting to the people in this thread in a pseudo-enlightened manner. No one in this thread is responding in a knee-jerk fashion or is being prudish. And we're certainly not being hypocrites. We're doing it as parents, and as people concerned about the industry.

 

Do show promoters have a right to have guests like this? Yep. It's their show. That doesn't mean that we have to think it's good for the industry or even business at the show. And it certainly isn't good for kids.

[oldmilwaukee6er]

To compare people not being comfortable having pornstars at a place where some bring their children and a government funded program of censorship based on questionable research is a bit much don't you think?

censorship is censorship.

 

anyways, its been real.

i understand why Asia might offend Zipper or yourself...

i urge you to vote with your dollar.

 

but this antiquated notion that sex and comics don't mix is absurd.

it just doesn't hold water.

[underthebigw]

To compare people not being comfortable having pornstars at a place where some bring their children and a government funded program of censorship based on questionable research is a bit much don't you think?

censorship is censorship.

 

anyways, its been real.

i understand why Asia might offend Zipper or yourself...

i urge you to vote with your dollar.

 

but this antiquated notion that sex and comics don't mix is absurd.

it just doesn't hold water.

 

Wow. You're really over-reacting, don't you think. I don't anything anyone has suggested comes anywhere near censorship. Not one person has suggested that there isn't a place for underground books or other adult material at shows.

[topofthetotem]

To compare people not being comfortable having pornstars at a place where some bring their children and a government funded program of censorship based on questionable research is a bit much don't you think?

censorship is censorship.

 

anyways, its been real .

i understand why Asia might offend Zipper or yourself...

i urge you to vote with your dollar.

 

but this antiquated notion that sex and comics don't mix is absurd.

it just doesn't hold water.

and the FDQ Classic JC move.

[FlyingDonut]

Assuming oldmilwaukee6er isn't a shill, I'll respond.

 

First, and since you probably don't know me from Adam, a bit of background. I'm a card-carrying member of the ACLU , have a great deal of underground comix in my house, am liberal in my political views, and am a First Amendment absolutist. I believe strongly that NOTHING should be banned from adults. You want to buy porn that shows a one-legged nun *spoon* a goat? As long as you're over 18, go right ahead. More power to you. If that's what it takes to get your rocks off, have fun.

 

That being said, I'm a parent of an 11 year old boy and a 6 year old girl, both of whom have been attending comic shows since they were in utero. My 11 year old has an incredible sketch book that he has gotten because I've been able to let him wander big shows by himself. As a parent, I'm failing him if I let him be exposed to pornography at a comic show at 11. Don't even get me started on my daughter - the culture is oversexed as it is.

 

Nobody is calling for censorship of anything. A dealer can sell all the underground and porn comics he wants to adults behind his table. If my son went to a booth and started pulling out the porn books, the dealer would very quickly take them away from him. You can't sell porn to children in this country, sorry. Of course, I have no problem with that stuff being in a convention, if there are filters. Every year, for example, there's a giant porn booth at Wizard Chicago. There's a guard, and they make sure kids can't get in. Everybody's happy, and they sell a ton of stuff.

 

What people are calling for is a sensible approach, which, given that Asia Carrerra is going to be coming to the show, isn't that big of a deal. Have a separate area where the porn stars will be. Do I want to see Aria Giovanna? Damn straight. But I don't think its too much to ask to make it so my children don't see her, and, more specifically, the giant glossy photos of her spread eagled.

[drsone]

Assuming oldmilwaukee6er isn't a shill, I'll respond.

 

First, and since you probably don't know me from Adam, a bit of background. I'm a card-carrying member of the ACLU , have a great deal of underground comix in my house, am liberal in my political views, and am a First Amendment absolutist. I believe strongly that NOTHING should be banned from adults. You want to buy porn that shows a one-legged nun *spoon* a goat? As long as you're over 18, go right ahead. More power to you. If that's what it takes to get your rocks off, have fun.

 

That being said, I'm a parent of an 11 year old boy and a 6 year old girl, both of whom have been attending comic shows since they were in utero. My 11 year old has an incredible sketch book that he has gotten because I've been able to let him wander big shows by himself. As a parent, I'm failing him if I let him be exposed to pornography at a comic show at 11. Don't even get me started on my daughter - the culture is oversexed as it is.

 

Nobody is calling for censorship of anything. A dealer can sell all the underground and porn comics he wants to adults behind his table. If my son went to a booth and started pulling out the porn books, the dealer would very quickly take them away from him. You can't sell porn to children in this country, sorry. Of course, I have no problem with that stuff being in a convention, if there are filters. Every year, for example, there's a giant porn booth at Wizard Chicago. There's a guard, and they make sure kids can't get in. Everybody's happy, and they sell a ton of stuff.

 

What people are calling for is a sensible approach, which, given that Asia Carrerra is going to be coming to the show, isn't that big of a deal. Have a separate area where the porn stars will be. Do I want to see Aria Giovanna? Damn straight. But I don't think its too much to ask to make it so my children don't see her, and, more specifically, the giant glossy photos of her spread eagled.

 

 

Thread Over.

[towards2112]

Soooo,,, ya gonna burn me a copy of the thing with the goat ??

[benz]

Soooo,,, ya gonna burn me a copy of the thing with the goat ??

[thanos_oftitan]

Assuming oldmilwaukee6er isn't a shill, I'll respond.

 

First, and since you probably don't know me from Adam, a bit of background. I'm a card-carrying member of the ACLU , have a great deal of underground comix in my house, am liberal in my political views, and am a First Amendment absolutist. I believe strongly that NOTHING should be banned from adults. You want to buy porn that shows a one-legged nun *spoon* a goat? As long as you're over 18, go right ahead. More power to you. If that's what it takes to get your rocks off, have fun.

 

That being said, I'm a parent of an 11 year old boy and a 6 year old girl, both of whom have been attending comic shows since they were in utero. My 11 year old has an incredible sketch book that he has gotten because I've been able to let him wander big shows by himself. As a parent, I'm failing him if I let him be exposed to pornography at a comic show at 11. Don't even get me started on my daughter - the culture is oversexed as it is.

 

Nobody is calling for censorship of anything. A dealer can sell all the underground and porn comics he wants to adults behind his table. If my son went to a booth and started pulling out the porn books, the dealer would very quickly take them away from him. You can't sell porn to children in this country, sorry. Of course, I have no problem with that stuff being in a convention, if there are filters. Every year, for example, there's a giant porn booth at Wizard Chicago. There's a guard, and they make sure kids can't get in. Everybody's happy, and they sell a ton of stuff.

 

What people are calling for is a sensible approach, which, given that Asia Carrerra is going to be coming to the show, isn't that big of a deal. Have a separate area where the porn stars will be. Do I want to see Aria Giovanna? Damn straight. But I don't think its too much to ask to make it so my children don't see her, and, more specifically, the giant glossy photos of her spread eagled.

 

 

Thread Over.

 

I agree, well said.

[drbanner]

Assuming oldmilwaukee6er isn't a shill, I'll respond.

 

First, and since you probably don't know me from Adam, a bit of background. I'm a card-carrying member of the ACLU , have a great deal of underground comix in my house, am liberal in my political views, and am a First Amendment absolutist. I believe strongly that NOTHING should be banned from adults. You want to buy porn that shows a one-legged nun *spoon* a goat? As long as you're over 18, go right ahead. More power to you. If that's what it takes to get your rocks off, have fun.

 

That being said, I'm a parent of an 11 year old boy and a 6 year old girl, both of whom have been attending comic shows since they were in utero. My 11 year old has an incredible sketch book that he has gotten because I've been able to let him wander big shows by himself. As a parent, I'm failing him if I let him be exposed to pornography at a comic show at 11. Don't even get me started on my daughter - the culture is oversexed as it is.

 

Nobody is calling for censorship of anything. A dealer can sell all the underground and porn comics he wants to adults behind his table. If my son went to a booth and started pulling out the porn books, the dealer would very quickly take them away from him. You can't sell porn to children in this country, sorry. Of course, I have no problem with that stuff being in a convention, if there are filters. Every year, for example, there's a giant porn booth at Wizard Chicago. There's a guard, and they make sure kids can't get in. Everybody's happy, and they sell a ton of stuff.

 

What people are calling for is a sensible approach, which, given that Asia Carrerra is going to be coming to the show, isn't that big of a deal. Have a separate area where the porn stars will be. Do I want to see Aria Giovanna? Damn straight. But I don't think its too much to ask to make it so my children don't see her, and, more specifically, the giant glossy photos of her spread eagled.

 

[oldmilwaukee6er]

i do not understand the shill comments (Donut) or what TOTT thinks in terms of me being someone else. i have been posted here since 2004. i am personally known to Comicwiz and have posted alongside Zipper at STL for over 2 yrs, just to name two. Even a quick look at my profile/weblink would tell one precisely who i am. i am not a shill... i simply represent a dissenting opinion in this thread.

 

that opinion being that sex is so very pervasive in comics/con popular culture that it is hypocritical to suggest that overt sex has no place at a con. when we say that... we idealize the roots of comics and con culture and effectively forget the evolution of the comic shops that we all visited as children (ie. head shops). we forget that some of the early cons had direct ties to sex/underground comix (eg. San Diego).

 

segregation of it is a different issue and not one i am personally for.... because segregation contributes to what has kept underground comix (yes, sometimes pornographic) out of Overstreet and has swept the importance/influence of underground comix (sometimes pornographic) to the wayside. the back room. but segregation IS different than outright censorship... still (for me) it implies discrimination.

[alecholland]

we idealize the roots of comics and con culture and effectively forget the evolution of the comic shops that we all visited as children (ie. head shops)

 

Wow, am I naive. I didn't realize Kroger's (my local grocery store) and 7-11 were head shops.

 

I wish I had more time to compose a longer response to some of the statements in this thread, but unfortunately I'm at work and don't have the time right now. Suffice it to say, I'm personally disappointed that porn is at a comicon at all. I honestly don't think it has a place there. There are other conventions that cover that culture and plenty of stores that sell that material for those who want it. I think the comicon is just being used as a cover for those 18-40 year old men who want to see a porn star or buy pornographic material without their wife or girlfriend knowing about it. Honestly, I lack the ability to understand the thrill of meeting a porn star. Wow, I just met someone who and a whole lot of guys and some women too. Woo hoo! I know this statement won't make me very popular and truly I'm against censorship, but come on. I just think that your statement about sex supposedly being so pervasive in comics and at comicons is a very weak argument and a poor excuse for allowing pornography at a convention. I think I can safely say that when I was reading Hulk, DD, FF, ASM, and other comics back in the 70's and early 80's it didn't conjure thoughts of gang . And, if you knew about my life, all I had to do was go in my living room to see that kind of stuff anyhow.

 

Call me a prude (I'm not, but you can call me one).

[FlyingDonut]

that opinion being that sex is so very pervasive in comics/con popular culture that it is hypocritical to suggest that overt sex has no place at a con. when we say that... we idealize the roots of comics and con culture and effectively forget the evolution of the comic shops that we all visited as children (ie. head shops). we forget that some of the early cons had direct ties to sex/underground comix (eg. San Diego).

 

First, in the 33 years I have been going to comic stores, not one of them has been a head shop, but that's a different argument entirely.

 

Second, you need to reread what I said. I am not suggesting that overt sex not be in a comic show, nor am I suggesting that underground comix not be sold at a comic show. You're mixing the message to fulfill some agenda, and are clearly missing the point.

 

What I am suggesting is to have common sense filters to prevent children from seeing it. The same filters that I and my wife apply to try to keep the "sex (that) is so very pervasive in comics/con popular culture " away from my children. The same filters that are available at a booth at the show where someone is selling underground comics. If my child walks up to that booth and starts to pull out a copy of Bizarre Sex or Harold Hedd or Zap or whatever, that booth owner has an obligation, both moral and legal, not to sell it to him, and further, to take it away.

 

Its the same with pornographic images at a show. Do I have a problem with them being there? No, outside of the fact that it perpetuates the stereotype of comic show attendees, but whatever floats your boat. What I have a problem with is having Asia Carrerra's spread eagled *spoon* readily available for my 11 year old and my 6 year old to see. Have all the porn queens you want at a show, but make it so my children (and other people's children) - who will, hopefully, be buying comics 10 years from now - can't see it.

[whetteon]

Your idea of censorship is censoring my ideas of a porn free comic convention. So if I voice my opinion I'm a censoring prune but if your voice your opinion you sticking up for the first amendment?

 

Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

[drbanner]

that opinion being that sex is so very pervasive in comics/con popular culture that it is hypocritical to suggest that overt sex has no place at a con. when we say that... we idealize the roots of comics and con culture and effectively forget the evolution of the comic shops that we all visited as children (ie. head shops). we forget that some of the early cons had direct ties to sex/underground comix (eg. San Diego).

 

I've been collecting comics for over 30 years (wow, I'm old!), attended my first show in 1981, have been going to shows across the SE ever since, have visited comic books stores from California to London and I have not seen a single porn star at any show I've gone to, have never bought a comic book at a head shop (been in plenty), and have zero interest in sex/underground comics. Your assumption that somehow sex and pornography go hand in hand with collecting old comic books is far, far, far from the truth. Underground/porno comics are a tiny niche in this hobby, but regardless, porn stars don't even belong in that niche.

 

The only reason porn stars "belong" at big comic book conventions is that big comic book conventions are now multi-media/pop culture conventions. They certainly don't belong because they have any association with the comic book hobby, and that's a weak argument for their inclusion. In any event, if the promoters feel they need to ruin these shows by having these kinds of people present, undoubtedly they should be curtained off in their own little red light district...

[Sid]

I see no problem with this as long as the promoters can gurantee I won't walk my little nephews into anything of the sorts accidentaly nor can they wander off on their own onto the scene. Simple. But to suggest comic book collecting, and pornography go hand in hand is insulting to me and I collect Good Girl/Bad Girl books. :\

[topofthetotem]

I don't think your JC! Not by a long shot.