So, where's all the VF's?

[ninanina]

I've heard several members say VF's , VF+'s Silver Age are in plentiful supply. But don't see too many "true" copies around. Many on e-bay are not really VF's as they are sold by sellers that can't grade. Many..... not all.

 

Dealers, are you selling them? Are you getting guide for them...now? I know you weren't a few years back. Just wondering if anythings changed, or is it changing? Is there more of a demand for these books with the NM's so expensive?

 

Or is it too early to say.

 

Just wondering 'cause although low grades are a plenty, I don't seem to see as many VF's as I have.

 

Or is it just me?

 

[sfilosa]

A slabbed VF will get around the VF guide price. Which basically means, you lose the cost of slabbing the book to find out it is a VF. If the VF is raw, on a book that is in demand, it quite possible to get 70-100% of guide.

 

Quality VF or VF+ books are probably harder to get then you would think. I've stated this before, but I really believe that sellers (especially on eBay), will take these VF's and put in a NM or two and sell runs. They will say the average grade is VF/NM, but in reality you are getting a lot more VF's than NM's. This way they get a much higher percentage for the entire run.

 

 

 

 

[Aman619]

I always thought that VFs were/are numerous when compared to NM. And that it was more of a a derisive claim by NM collectors. It seems to stand to reason that as you go down in grade the books get more common and easier to find, right?

[panhandlefool]

Unfortunately, most VF/VF+s are being graded by sellers as NM and sold in that manner. Hate to be negative, but that's what I've seen. Most sellers love to tick up the grade to enter that high-grade, sought-out area of buying. Good luck to all.

[ninanina]

I always thought that VFs were/are numerous when compared to NM. And that it was more of a a derisive claim by NM collectors. It seems to stand to reason that as you go down in grade the books get more common and easier to find, right?

 

Yeah, you would think so. But nowadays, I'm not so sure. Maybe comics were either looked after ( in which you get VF's and NM's ) but were looked after so well that most of the hi-grades were and are NM or at least VF/NM's. On the other end, you have the comics that were not looked after all that well, in which you find anything from Good and lower to Fines. So, maybe the VF's are not as common as many people (other than Sfilosa) think.

 

Interesting point brought on by panhandlefool where VF's are sold or at least trying to be sold as NM's on e-bay. Seems to account for some of them anyway. But, still they seem "absent" considering how common they are supposed to be. I mean, they should be all over the place but they're not. (1st time I used that one greggy)

 

Have not as yet heard from any dealers. You guys finding lotsa VF's out there?

[blutobc]

I'm finding late 60s Silver VF fairly easy(shops and ebay), but early 60s don't seem to be too common.

Those early 60s that you do see on ebay generally seem to be graded optomistically by the seller as "nearly vf", "just like vf","approaching vf" when they are basically just Fine.

[sfilosa]

Early VF's are going to get graded as they are still worth $100 or more. By 1966, most VF's (except keys) aren't going to worth getting graded.

 

Therefore, it stands to reason that you won't see as many "Raw" VF from the early 1960's.

 

 

[ninanina]

I'm finding late 60s Silver VF fairly easy(shops and ebay)

 

Are the shops and e-bay pretty much selling them for guide?

[Foolkiller]

Not a lot of the stores in NJ and PA have a large supply of properly graded VFs that I've seen of silver or bronze. Ebay is so hit or miss when you buy VFs raw, I'm never sure if it's going to be graded right or not... but they are available on ebay it seems in supply.

[ninanina]

The one's I've seen for e-bay generally go for below guide, mostly I feel because it's usually a "is this really a VF?" concern by the buyer. I know I've been fortunate in getting true VF's when I do buy them at a fraction of guide value. Perhaps a dealer is able to get guide because the book can be seen by the buyer and he can make a true decision as to whether or not it is an actual VF. I'm just not tripping all over them like I should be.

[sfilosa]

In general, you shouldn't be paying guide price for most late Silver-Age and Bronze-Age VF's. Usually 50-70% of guide is normal. A lot of times you can get a CGC'd VF for below guide price (obviously someone screwed up and thought they were going to get at least a VF/NM grade).

 

Also, I just passed on a huge 3,000 book collection that was mostly VF's. The reason I passed is simply that most of the time you will only get 50-70% of guide, and if you plan on selling these and making any money you need to buy them at 25-50% of guide (the seller eventually got close to 60-70% of guide in my opinion).

 

Plus, at least on eBay, you really need to package runs of VF together because who wants to buy a VF book that guides for $30, pay $15 (half price) but then have to fork over $5 to ship. The seller just sold the book for half price plus probably lost another $1 in eBay fees and that's assuming he never had the book shipped to him.

 

If you really want some nice VF's, I would recommend going to a good dealers website, buying 10 or more books and making sure that you keep the shipping cost to a minimum per book. Other than that, go to big conventions.

 

 

 

[ubiquiti]

thats what I have found in selling some VF's

I sold a VF/NM X-Men 108 raw for about 40% of guide, an X-Men 109 for about 50% of guide, ASM 119 about 50% of guide, a Fine GS X-Men 1 for abut 75% of guide..

Now if I were a "power-seller" I'm sure those numbers would have gone up about by about 15% - but not much more.

[MrNice-migration]

Alot of people have been brainwashed into thinking that NM- or better is the only way to fly! A strict VF to VF/NM, by accurate interpretation of Overstreet standards, is a beautiful book, and on some of the more difficult to obtain issues, a great piece to own!!

[clarkkentdds]

I feel a true GA VF is way undervalued in today's hobby... Even a rare "highest graded" GA 8.0 goes for a fraction of a GA 9.4 issue (with multiple 9.4s available for that issue).

[sfilosa]

Here is the part that I don't get.

 

Say you have a CGC graded book that's in NM- (9.2) and market value is $1,000.

 

Now that same issue gets a CGC NM (9.4) because it has one or two less faint spine stresses (but there is no doubt that it is a slightly better book).

 

Guess what the market value is now ----------

 

Between $2,500 to $3,000

 

 

Now that my friends, DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

 

 

Both books are exceptional high-grade books. Prior to CGC, both books would have a difference in value at most of 10-15%. The same dealer might have had both of the books and yes, he would price the NM copy slightly higher. But he definitely wouldn't have priced it 1.5 times higher.

 

It's not like I said the NM book is the nice copy in existence (which in that case, you could at least see someone paying whatever it takes to get the book). It might be the 20th nice copy. But some how it's worth so much more than a book with two more little stress lines.

 

[fantastic_four]

Say you have a CGC graded book that's in NM- (9.2) and market value is $1,000.

 

Now that same issue gets a CGC NM (9.4) because it has one or two less faint spine stresses (but there is no doubt that it is a slightly better book).

 

Guess what the market value is now ----------

 

Between $2,500 to $3,000

 

 

Now that my friends, DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

 

I agree...that's why I never got into the multiples game much. The margin of error in modern grading on the 25-notch scale isn't small enough--even amongst the pros--to determine value based upon the number alone. Maybe in 20 or 30 years grading will be tight enough to justify such large price differences for a difference of one notch...but not today.

[blutobc]

I usually see the ebay VFs at 50%. My local shops(only two left...three stores closed in past year) try to get 75% to full price for VFs. I guess they have to raise the money for that shop rent payment.

[Aman619]

yer Darn right, sfilosa! Thats the CGC effect that's warped todays HG CGC collectors. Its theis crazy notion thats grabbed th eimagination of the 9.8, 9.6 and 9.4 amassers that willingly pay these extreme multiples for every 2 tenths of a CGC point. Never made sense to me, but it seems to be today's "new comics economy" thinking. Are 'they' right? or is it a passing thing and there will be pain ahead?

[Drummy]

There will be pain ahead, I think, IF the buyer is hoping to make a profit in the short or long run. Collectors can pay whatever price they think is worthwhile because it's unlikely ever to be sold - I try not to judge people's buying practices for collecting purposes. I've certainly spent a lot of $$ on a book for my collection from time to time. My only hope (for these buyers and their families) is that these purchases are coming out of a discretionary income pile.

 

I think we're already starting to see some loosening of the multiples market. Some of the Heritage books and some recent Ebay sales suggest that 9.4's and even 9.6's (good ones!) can be had for less than 2x NM guide, especially for books high in the census count. As a collector (I spend too much to be investing!) I'm delighted at the trend.

 

"Multiples" pricing is for the birds. Each collector or buyer should have a price in mind, based on Overstreet, and negotiate from there. Simply doubling or tripling the price (especially for odd-looking or "ugly" books) is beyond simple-mindedness.

 

Dan

[sfilosa]

I think we're already starting to see some loosening of the multiples market. Some of the Heritage books and some recent Ebay sales suggest that 9.4's and even 9.6's (good ones!) can be had for less than 2x NM guide, especially for books high in the census count. As a collector (I spend too much to be investing!) I'm delighted at the trend.

 

 

This is why I say (and believe) that, CGC VF/NM to NM- books could increase in value over the next few years, yet the CGC NM (or better) books don't. And there is no doubt that if I am buying a book, I'm looking for "eye appeal". Is a CGC NM book without "eye appeal" still really worth that much more than a CGC NM- book with "eye appeal"? I believe in the long run the answer will be NO.

 

X-Men #48 CGC NM

 

X-Men #48 CGC VF/NM

 

Obviously, the NM is a nicer copy, but it is slightly mis-cut and a little more yellowed than the VF/NMt.

 

 

Now look at the final sale price. You could have bought FOUR of the VF/NM copies ( and had change) for the price of the NM. Plus, the VF/NM book sold for below Guide value (and its slabbed!!). Ten years from now, I believe you will be able to sell the VF/NM book for a higher percentage profit than the NM copy.

 

 

Overstreet Guide could continue to show a 10% increase on NM books for a few years just becuase they are so low compared to market value. This increase looks nice, but in reality the true market value of the book could be flat or even declining a bit.